Thread: Guatemala Info

@scamvictim... I agree with what you say except please leave Guatemala out of it. IMHO Guatemala is a more attractive place than Panama. Cleaner and more organized. Not the whole country, but just the parts that are worth living in such as Antigua or Lake Aitlan, etc. I can't speak for the rest of the country though. I've lived all over Panama and been there, done that. Some things will never change, especially the stuff that gets under your skin. I'm not going to bash Panama, but the truth is Panama is highly overrated while remains Guatemala under rated.

Originally Posted by Felicity

@scamvictim... I agree with what you say except please leave Guatemala out of it. IMHO Guatemala is a more attractive place than Panama. Cleaner and more organized. Not the whole country, but just the parts that are worth living in such as Antigua or Lake Aitlan, etc. I can't speak for the rest of the country though. I've lived all over Panama and been there, done that. Some things will never change, especially the stuff that gets under your skin. I'm not going to bash Panama, but the truth is Panama is highly overrated while remains Guatemala under rated.

Felicity,

Point well taken! Lo siento. The Lake Aitan and Antigua areas are indeed beautiful, as no doubt are other areas of Guatemala. Did you know that some of the old Tarzan movies were filmed on the Rio Dulce? Guatemala has a rich cultural ancient history and many fascinating things to see, not to mention a wonderful Pacific coast line.

It's unfortunate that my overall opinion of the country is somewhat tainted by my experience with having been scammed by Panama (Guatemala) Legal, who are hold up in Guatemala City.

I'm, sure that there are many wonderful experiences and people there for those who are adventurous enough to look for them.

Unfortunately, for me, a visit there to take in the experience, as I have come to understand, would not be good for my health. Perhaps, someday that will not be the case!

Chris

Chris,

I had the same lack luster opinion of Guatemala before I made a visit there. I was shocked to see a beautiful and immaculate airport and the short 40 minute ride into Antigua was pretty and clean with trees planted in the medians. Lake Atitlan is a stunning beauty. I haven't been anywhere near Guatemala City since everyone says it's so dangerous. However after doing research, there are many zones that are deemed safe and some zones are filled with multi-million dollar homes. Zone 10, aka Zona Viva is full of night life and safe at night. When I stayed in Antigua, I was amazed at how many top end restaurants there were in 9 square blocks, probably 100 or so. It was euphoria especially coming from the interior of Panama which has virtually no good dining.

I've been living in Panama for quite some time and to be honest I haven't found anywhere here that matches Antigua when it comes to fine dining and convenience since everything is within walking distance. And it has perfect eternal spring weather of 60-80 degrees since it's located at 1,500m elevation. It just don't get any better.

Anyway, this is a Panama board so I won't talk anymore of Guatemala. I'm just dreaming out loud. Cheers!

What about the prices?

I'd be interested to know the price comparison of food, beer, rent, electricity myself.

I can only speak for my limited visits to Antigua and Lake Atitlan so my impression may not represent Guatemala as a whole. For all I know the rest of the country may be a sh*t hole? My guess is that tourist destinations are protected from the insanity and therefore give people a positive impression so they keep coming back.

The prices for dining are all across the board but expect to pay slightly less than U.S. prices. For example a wonderful steak dinner at El Arco was $15 out the door. It was the best steak dinner I ever had. In the U.S. that would be a $30 meal easy. Sushi at Nokiate was more expensive than U.S. and very limited selection of fish, but the quality was good. You can eat cheaper at the fondas or road side vendors. Gas is more expensive than in Panama. Last I checked it was around $3/gal for 91 octane. Can't remember diesel prices, but probably more expensive too. I had read electricity was a bit more expensive too. Fresh vegetables are cheap and in huge abundance. There is a giant market square on the west edge of Antigua. I haven't seen anything like it in Panama. Rent is under $1,000/mo. for a 3 bedroom house and around $400/mo. for a 1 bedroom apartment. National brand beer is expensive at restaurants... around $2 a bottle. Same with soft drinks. Not sure if it's cheaper at the dive bars?

Good review site:

Antigua Guatemala Restaurants: Read Antigua Guatemala Restaurant Reviews - TripAdvisor

Aside from dining and entertainment the vibe of Antigua is old world, a bit run down in areas as to be expected, but no garbage strew on the ground. It's pretty well kept. The vibe is a mesh between El Valle and Casco Viejo. Lots of artistically inclined people live there. The people tend to be educated and mature since Antigua is known for language immersion schools so you find young people from all over the world living there. Very interesting people indeed.

Real estate prices in Antigua are sky high, around $400/m2. If you live on the outskirts of town in the rural area say 5km away, land costs around $20-40/m2. That would be your best bet because it is a lot quieter and the air quality is cleaner out in the country.

The money they use is Quetzal. To roughly convert to US$, just divide the price by 8. It's easy to exchange your dollars at any bank. Just don't do it at the airport because they will rip you off.

I'm going to dig deeper into Guatemala regarding visas and banking and will report back when I get more info.

Panama is good but I think there is better out there so I'm just checking things out. I personally don't like the heat at sea level and want to live in the highlands. But in Panama when you live in the highlands, you don't have much of a selection of fine dining and you are far from the airport. Regardless, it can't hurt to look elsewhere. We should all keep an open mind. However, one caveat is if you are a beach person then Guatemala will not work for you. You must travel about 3.5 hours drive to El Salvador to get to any nice beaches.

A friend of mine and I rode through Guatemala on motorcycles a couple years ago and I agree that the country is incredibly beautiful. We were on our way from Mexico to Belize (and onwards) and Lake Atitlan is unbelievable. We stayed one night on the Rio Dulce and I'd like to go back and spend some time looking around there. Tikal is a fantastic ruin and may be the largest of the Mayan cities. I was surprised to find high speed internet in many places (unlike Belize). I'd be interested in knowing more about medical care and prices. As a previous poster said, Antigua is a center for language schools and I also had my finest steak in Central America at a restaurant in Antigua. There are probably a couple dozen active volcanoes in Guatemala. It is a pretty neat place from my limited exposure and I would like to hear from others as well. Panama is high on my list of a place to live due to prices, infrastructure, and medical care. Costa Rica is great but the day to day prices (stores, food, etc.) are pretty high. Guatemala has them both beat as far as climate variations though. For example, I think the water temperature of Lake Atitlan is 70 degrees or so throughout the year; surprisingly cold for a southern latitudes. Thanks for the thread Mr WooHoo.

It is good to hear people's experiences from other locations in Latin America. Let's face it, Panama isn't the only country that has things to offer. Costa Rica is EXTREMELY expensive compared to Panama in regards to food, beer, etc. Rent in downtown San Jose is cheaper than downtown Panama City but it is not anywhere near the class or quality. I appreciate everybody sharing their experiences with Guatemala. Funny how a topic that got started with what appears to be a "shady" law firm transformed into a pretty interesting thread. I see a road trip to Guatemala in my future.

Thanks for sharing your experiences bicar. I have yet to see the non-touristy areas of Guatemala such as Xela (2nd largest city) and many of the off the beaten path ruins or climbing the active volcanoes. That will come in time. I'm more or less scouting for a place to live either full or part time that will match my lifestyle. I have a passion for cooking and fine dining, but I am not a city person so I live in the interior of Panama in a gringo hot spot. The food here is very inconsistent and the quality is poor. I don't like driving around in the city and only go there if absolutely required. So it's been a real sacrifice for me, although the Panama country side is beautiful and the beaches are great. I am also growing tired of the heat, although it's not really that hot in Panama especially compared to the south west states of the US. But I don't want to depend on A/C or heat so eternal spring weather is a must for me.

I think Panama offers the most diverse experiences for such a small country. More than likely there will be a place in Panama that will suit your fancy. In my case, I haven't found it. I considered El Valle, but the fine dining and night life just doesn't cut it for me. Although it's darn near close to what I want climate and vibe wise.

Thanks for the response Felicity. I'm getting closer to making a move to Central America and if I can sell my house in Wisconsin, the time may be very close. It sounds like you are quite a bit farther along than I am. I've been in Guatemala three times and enjoyed it very much but wasn't looking for a permanent place to live at the time and some of the comments on this thread gives me pause. I'm going to do some more research on Guatemala. Earlier this year I spent some time in Costa Rica and liked the country but was surprised at the prices for everyday items and food. My next trip will be to Panama in the next month or two. I'm kind of leaning towards visiting the Las Hermanas and Las Tablas areas. I'm looking for something not too populated but with good internet access, decent shopping facilities within an hour or two, and availability of medical services (although I'm in good health but am getting older and have to plan ahead). I'm not sure what I want in terms of a place to live.

Actually I was gonna go to Guatemala to do some buissness with the now famous law firm of ours in the next year or so...

www.panamalaw.org


I think That could be over na...

Anyways, Through researching the country I liked alot of things about the country, like the weather which is year round spring like.

I really did alot of reasearch on the net including being on some forums, and one thing that shocked me was the # of people complaining of crimes and violent crimes happening to them, not everyone, but enough to make me concerned, from what I have seen and heard on the forums it is much more dangerous than Panama.

People were complaining of robberies by gun point, etc... exspecially if they travel with camera's etc... But just alot of crime in general....

Bascially alot of the things I read about on the forums are on the travel warnings below.

Guatemala From USA.....

CRIME: Guatemala has one of the highest violent crime rates in Latin America. In 2008, approximately 40 murders a week were reported in Guatemala City alone. While the vast majority of murders do not involve foreigners, the sheer volume of activity means that local officials, who are inexperienced and underpaid, are unable to cope with the problem. Rule of law is lacking as the judicial system is weak, overworked, and inefficient. Well-armed criminals know there is little chance they will be caught or punished.

The number of violent crimes reported by U.S. citizens and other foreigners has remained high and incidents have included, but are not limited to, assault, theft, armed robbery, carjacking, rape, kidnapping, and murder. To decrease the likelihood of becoming a victim, do not display items of value, such as laptops, ipods, cameras, and jewelry. The Embassy discourages carrying large sums of money. Do not resist if you are being robbed. Victims have been killed when they resisted attack. Assailants are often armed with guns and do not hesitate to use them.

Gangs are a growing concern in Guatemala City and rural Guatemala. Gang members are often well armed with sophisticated weaponry and they sometimes use massive amounts of force. Emboldened armed robbers have attacked vehicles on main roads in broad daylight. Travel on rural roads increases the risk of being stopped by a criminal roadblock or ambush.

Widespread narcotics and alien smuggling activities make remote areas especially dangerous. Though there is no evidence that Americans are particularly targeted, criminals look for every opportunity to attack, so all travelers should remain constantly vigilant.

U.S. Embassy personnel observe heightened security precautions in Guatemala City and throughout the country. Rather than traveling alone, use a reputable tour organization. Stay in groups, travel in a caravan consisting of two or more vehicles, and stay on the main roads. Ensure that someone not traveling with you is aware of your itinerary. Avoid hotels that do not have adequate security.

Travel after dark anywhere in Guatemala is extremely dangerous. It is preferable to stay in the main tourist destinations. Pay close attention to your surroundings, especially when walking or driving in Guatemala City.

A number of travelers have experienced carjackings and armed robberies after just having arrived on international flights, most frequently in the evening. In the most common scenario, tourists or business travelers who land at the airport after dark are held up by armed men as their vehicle departs the airport, but similar incidents have occurred at other times of the day.

Private vehicles, taxis and shuttle buses have all been targeted. Typically, the assailants steal money, passports, and luggage, and in some but not all cases, the assailants steal the vehicle as well. Recently, many of these attacks have taken place far from the airport, just as travelers were arriving at their homes, or in less busy areas of the city. Victims who did not resist the attackers were not physically injured.

The Embassy discourages its own employees from arriving on evening flights. Coordinate arrival times with those picking up passengers, minimize time spent standing outside in the airport passenger pick-up area, and do not walk out of the airport with valuables in plain sight. Laptops are frequently targeted, so carry them inconspicuously in a backpack or other carry-on luggage. In some cases, assailants have been wearing full or partial police uniforms and have used vehicles that resemble police vehicles, indicating that some elements of the police might be involved. Armed robberies have occurred within minutes of a tourist’s vehicle having been stopped by the police.

Avoid low-priced intra- and inter-city public buses (recycled U.S. school buses). They are often attacked by armed robbers and are poorly maintained and dangerously driven. More than 200 bus drivers and passengers were killed in 2008 in robberies staged by holdup gangs that target public transportation, both urban and inter-city. Do not hail taxis on the street in Guatemala City. For shorter trips, the safest option is to take radio-dispatched or hotel taxis.

The use of modern inter-city buses somewhat improves security and safety; however, several travelers have been attacked on first-class buses on highway CA-2 near the border areas with both Mexico and El Salvador, and on highways CA-1 and CA-9 near the border with El Salvador and in the highlands between Quetzaltenango and Sololá.

Be cautious with personal items such as backpacks, fanny packs, and passports while riding buses, as tourists’ possessions are a favorite target of thieves.

Since December 1999, 41 American citizens have been murdered in Guatemala, including eight in 2008. A suspect was convicted in only one case.

Recently, there have been numerous reports of violent criminal activity along Guatemala’s main highways, including the Carretera El Salvador (Inter-American Highway). There has also been an increase in alcohol-related traffic accidents on the Carretera after daylight hours. Embassy employees have been directed not to use this road at night. There has also been a series of violent highway robberies along National Route #14 between Antigua and Escuintla, along Route #4 on the south side and west shores of Lake Atitlan between San Lucas Toliman and Chacala, and along Route #11 on the east shore between San Lucas Toliman and CA-1.

Several tourists of various nationalities have been targeted along these routes in brazen daylight robberies. In some cases tourist vans have been pulled over and passengers kidnapped, resulting in physical injury or sexual assault. One of these incidents occurred on CA-2 in Santa Rosa while the van was traveling from the El Salvador border to Antigua. Another incident occurred on CA-1 in Totonicapan as a private bus traveled from the Mexican border to Panajachel.

Multiple boaters in the Rio Dulce area of the Department of Izabal have been victimized in violent armed attacks while on their boats. In 2008, a man was killed with a machete and a woman injured in the attack after refusing to relinquish their possessions. Indigenous activists have taken foreign tourists hostage in the Rio Dulce and Livingston area. Although all hostages have been released unharmed, tensions between indigenous activists and authorities remain.

There have been “express” kidnappings in recent years, primarily in Guatemala City, in which kidnappers demand a relatively small ransom that they believe can be quickly gathered. U.S. citizens, including young children, have been kidnapped in recent years. Some kidnapping gangs are known to kill their victims whether or not the ransom is paid.
Violent robberies are becoming more common in all areas of the country. Persons carrying laptop computers and expensive cell phones are often targets.

Areas that offer wi-fi computer services have been targeted; several individuals have been killed and their laptops taken upon departure from these establishments after they were seen using their computers in public. Avoid carrying laptop cases or anything that resembles one, even if they do not contain laptops.

Pickpockets and purse-snatchers are active in all major cities and tourist sites, especially the central market and other parts of Zone 1 in Guatemala City and Antigua. For security reasons, the Embassy does not allow U.S. government employees to stay in hotels in Zone 1 and urges private travelers to avoid staying in this area. In a common scenario, an accomplice distracts the victim, while an assailant slashes or simply steals a bag or backpack while the victim’s attention is diverted.

Carjacking and theft of items from occupied vehicles are becoming more common. Often the assailants are on motorcycles and pull up alongside a car stopped at a traffic light. The passenger on the motorcycle is armed and the assailants are able to flee the scene quickly. In some cases, the vehicle occupants were visibly using their cell phones or other handheld devices. Avoid using electronic devices in traffic or leaving purses on seats in plain sight.

As in other countries, criminals also use a number of scams to steal money and possessions from tourists in Guatemala. In one popular scam, robbers place a nail in a parked vehicle’s tire. The vehicle is then followed by the robbers who pose as “good Samaritans” when the tire becomes flat and the victims pull to the side of the road. While “help” is being rendered, the contents of the car are stolen, often without the knowledge of the victims. However, in some cases, the robbers have threatened the tourists with weapons. Parking areas in and around the Guatemala City International Airport are particularly prone to this crime. In another scam, victims are approached in a hotel, restaurant or other public place by an individual claiming that there is some sort of problem with his or the would-be victim’s automobile in the parking lot.

On the way to investigate the “problem,” usually in a remote or concealed area near the parking lot, the robber pulls a gun on the victim and demands cash, credit cards and other valuables. A third popular scam involves various attempts to acquire a victim’s ATM card and PIN number. Some sophisticated criminals have even placed electronic boxes outside ATM kiosks to record the PIN numbers of unsuspecting victims who believe they must enter their PIN numbers to gain entry to the ATM foyer. After recording PIN numbers, robbers then steal the owner’s ATM card to complete their crimes. There have been a number of incidents in which foreigners have been robbed immediately after making a large withdrawal from local banks.

While complicity by bank employees is strongly suspected in these crimes, so far the police have made no arrests. There are dozens of techniques scammers can use to rob victims of money and possessions. While most people mean no harm, always be cautious when strangers approach you for any reason or make unusual requests.

Parents adopting children in Guatemala have also been victimized in public places and at their hotels by police (or individuals dressed as police) who have threatened to arrest foster mothers and turn adoptive children over to orphanages, but released them in exchange for significant payments, often approaching $1,000. Such threats have no basis in Guatemalan law, and should be immediately reported to the Embassy.

The main road to Lake Atitlan via the Inter-American Highway (CA-1) and Sololá is safer than the alternatives, though attacks in recent years have made traveling in a caravan highly recommended. Robbery, rape and assault have been frequently reported on secondary roads near the lake, with the highest number of incidents occurring on the RN-11 (Las Trampas road) parallel to the east side of the lake. Robbers have used mountain roads advantageously to stop buses, vans and cars in a variety of ways.

Armed attacks have occurred on roads from Guatemala City to the Petén. Visitors to the Mayan ruins at Tikal are urged to fly to nearby Flores and then travel by bus or tour van to the site. Violent attacks have occurred in the Mayan ruins in the Petén, including in the Cerro Cahui Conservation Park, Yaxha, the road to and inside Tikal Park, and in the Tikal ruins, particularly during early morning sunrise tours of the ruins. Tourist police (POLITUR) patrols inside the park have significantly reduced the incidence of violent crime inside the park, but travelers should nevertheless remain in groups, stay on the principal trails leading to the Central Plaza and the Temple IV complex, and avoid remote areas of the park.

Security escorts for tourist groups and security information are available from the Tourist Assistance Office (ASISTUR) of INGUAT (the Guatemalan Tourism Institute) at 7a Avenida 1-17, Zona 4, Centro Cívico, Guatemala City. INGUAT’s ASISTUR division has 24-hour/seven days per week direct telephone numbers for tourist assistance and emergencies. These are (502) 2421-2810 and (502) 5578-9836. The fax is (502) 2421-2891. ASISTUR also maintains regional offices in all major tourist destinations in Guatemala, and the regional delegates provide rapid and appropriate assistance to crime and accident victims.

INGUAT may be reached by its toll-free number within the United States at 1-888-464-8281. You may also simply dial 1500 in Guatemala to reach INGUAT Tourist Assistance, orcontact INGUAT by email. Travelers may also wish tovisit INGUAT’s web site. Tourist groups are advised to request security escorts from INGUAT.

There have been no incidents of armed robbery of groups escorted through the Tourist Protection Program. The request should be submitted by mail, fax or e-mail and should arrive at INGUAT at least three business days in advance of the proposed travel. Requests should be directed to the attention of the Coordinator of the National Tourist Assistance Program, and should provide the itinerary, names of travelers, and model and color of the vehicle in which they will be traveling. Travelers should be aware that INGUAT might not be able to accommodate all requests.

In many countries around the world, counterfeit and pirated goods are widely available. Transactions involving such products may be illegal under local law. In addition, bringing them back to the United States may result in forfeitures and/or fines. TheComputer Crime and Intellectual Property Division in the U.S. Department of Justicehas more information on this serious problem.



Guatemala Travel Advice and Advisories | Government of Canada

I still might be intrested in going someday though...

Is there a Guatemala forum on the internet?

Interesting post Bel-Air. You know, I hear similar things from lots of people. I've made three motorcycle trips to Central America and I've yet to experience these problems. I know they happen everywhere, including all over the USA too. My objective was too stay out of large cities as much as possible and we rarely traveled at night. When one is always getting lost, night travel is nearly impossible. I've never found GPS road maps for Mexico, Guatemala, or Belize that were even close to usable. Actually, people always seemed to be going out of their way for us. Probably they felt sorry for us as we certainly didn't look like we had valuables and we really obviously enjoyed meeting people, eating at small restaurants, and staying in the rural family hotels. I still want to make a motorcycle trip to Panama but haven't been able to put the time together for it yet. I'm from the midwest and I have no desire to be in Chicago, Detroit, or Milwaukee at any time, particularly at night.

@Bel-Air: U.S. propaganda never paints a pretty picture of anywhere outside the U.S. It's ironic how the most f'd up violent crime happens in the U.S though. Crime is very localized and targeted in Central America. You can avoid incidences just by not being a good target. I can say first hand that U.S. is no longer a desirable place to live for many, many reasons. So when I read official U.S. government propaganda like that you posted, it will only invoke a response like mine from someone who knows better.

BTW, you are more than welcome to stay at home and not visit Guatemala or any other Central/South American country. No one will miss you.

---------- Post added at 07:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:24 PM ----------

bicar, I think you will like the Azuero peninsula. Great fishing and nice scenery. The only negative may be the heat. You will find Panama an interesting place. I can assure you that you will not like many areas for this reason or that. But somewhere in Panama will have your name on it. Good luck with your search.

To be honest Felicity, I cannot agree with you since I would not want someone on this forum going to Guatemala thinking it is safer than Kansas, and not take the appropriate precautions...

Felicity... Are you working for Panamalaw.org

Since they moved there main offfice there, and you are a new poster.....

Also your writing and way of thinking is very similar to the wrtings on that web site, and I should know, I read every article on that site...

Guatemala is not the safest place in the world... Sure a guy could go and nothing could happen, but just look at the stats.

USA more dangerous than Guatemala... OK....

Guatemala has the 4th highest murder rate in the world per 100,000 people.

The murder rate is 2600% higher per 100,000 than my home country of Canada. And 800% higher than the dangerous USA you mentioned.....

The crime and murders is even higher and worse than the dangerous country of South Africa, and that says alot....

Speaking of some of the worst and most dangerous countries in the world....It is even higher than Iraq.... 100% worse....

I would go to the USA for a trip without a second thought, not so to Guatemala...

So felicity, is this also official U.S. government propaganda as well????

List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


http://www.ocavi.com/docs_files/file_385.pdf

Crime

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatemala_City

"In 2008, Approximately 40 murders a week were reported in Guatemala City alone. While the vast majority of murders do not involve foreigners, the sheer volume of activity and the limited resources makes local officials and police, who are inexperienced and underpaid, unable to cope with the problem.

The judicial system is weak, overworked, and inefficient further compounding the crime problem.[14] There have been proposals to create a criminal justice program in the country and require police officers to have such studies. Higher studies would also be coupled with higher pay. This has only remained in the discussion stage without any advances despite the increased criminal wave that has plagued the city and country in the past decade or so."

Seems to be dangerous to even go on the outskirts, this is an older post but helpfull to anyone going to Guatemala..

How I was robbed in Guatemala and the lessons I learned

Here is one story I was following, and it is not a unique one at all.

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Kent | Pupils robbed on Guatemala trip

Crime has really gone up the last 10 years, and there is guns everywere.

Perhaps you could make 10 trips and be ok, but it is defintely not Kansas anymore....

One thing I must say is this though, I was just viewing pics from my cousins and also brothers trips there this year, and one thing I noticed is that the nature is incrediably beughtifull there, and even around the capital can be very nice with all the vegatation.

I know many people who went, some were good, some not so good.

The place has many things going for it, like low cost of living, however low crime rate is just not one of them, Just keep an open mind people.

Take care all.

@Bel-air: "While the vast majority of murders do not involve foreigners..." What does that tell you? You know about the civil war between the classes (which officially ended)? Are you aware of the bus driver extortion scam where they were killing bus drivers daily for not paying protection money? The ring leader has been caught. I agree with you 100% that within Guatemala City, there are crime infested areas, drug killings, gang killings etc. Hey wait a minute? Doesn't that sound like inner city USA? Just stay away from the "ghettos" and go to the nice areas and you will be fine. Out of the 21 zones in Guatemala city, I've identified half that are safe, no different than suburbia USA. Antigua has its own tourist police to make sure the people are safe. You can also hire security guides if you want to make off the beaten treks.

My point is your paranoia is typical of Americans. Things are blown out of proportion so you will only visit countries are are "in bed" with the USA and spend your dollars there.

I presume you live in Panama? Well most of the people I know in Panama have been victims of theft at some time. Many were home invaded. Although none were killed, some were beaten and/or wounded during the encounter. Not to scare anyone here, but that is a fact that Panama is no safer than Guatemala if you are an expat gringo. The stats that you post don't separate foreigners from locals so your data is misleading.

All of the above does not bother me at all. I'd rather be around people who can read between the lines than fall for the propaganda. That's what makes Guatemala a great and undiscovered place and I hope it stays that way. So for anyone reading this... please don't go. You probably will not make it home alive.

BTW, your panamalaw.org comment was funny.

I am not so sure about this "does not involve foreigner" thing.

Here is the past few years for me and the people I know:

1. Friend threw self out of taxi i Bogota during attempted kidnapping.
2. Friend kidnapped by police in a popular resort in Cuba.
3. Apartment break-in from balcony. About 5k of stuff gone. Panama.
4. Neighbor (girl working for UN here for 3 months) robbed second day in Panama by 3 guys in old town.
5. At language school in Costa Rica - about 30 % of the students were robbed or has things stolen during their 1-2 month stay. One german guy was robbed in a taxi 2 times in a 3-week period. A Costa Rican guy was executed in the most popular student bar close to school.
6. Neighbor's girlsfriend car-kidnapped by Colombia thief and taken around town to purchases/withdrawals.

Expect somewhere in the range of 10-30 times higher probability of being stabbed, killed or robbed in these countries.

What fools you in the statistics is the time that people are there.

The stats are for X number of people out 100,000 in ONE YEAR. A tourist is normally on location for 1 week, making his probability 2 % of the numbers during the stay (1 out of 52).

Now that I have stayed here (CR/PA) for about 2.5 years the crime has started to add up. Enough to take precautions:

1. $60 in cash + copy of ID when going out + cell. Nothing more.
2. Tear gas/pepper spray/UV Paint on occasion.
3. Decisive and snappy with taxi drivers at night.

Best, Ed
PANAMA BANK GUIDE - LIST OF BANKS IN PANAMA

Thanks for enlightening us Ed. I just wanted to point out that in any CA country there are areas that are relatively safe and uneventful no different than in the U.S. But if you venture outside the safe zones then your risk goes through the roof. Just like wandering into the ghetto at night in the U.S. My point is you can have a great life anywhere by staying in the safe areas and avoiding the risky ones. It's no different than living on the right side of the tracks in the U.S. There is this assumption that CA is all the wrong side of the tracks which is false. Stats and numbers can all be played with and being on the ground is the only way to assess an area.

Originally Posted by BEL-AIR

To be honest Felicity, I cannot agree with you since I would not want someone on this forum going to Guatemala thinking it is safer than Kansas, and not take the appropriate precautions...

Felicity... Are you working for Panamalaw.org

Since they moved there main offfice there, and you are a new poster.....

Also your writing and way of thinking is very similar to the wrtings on that web site, and I should know, I read every article on that site...

Guatemala is not the safest place in the world... Sure a guy could go and nothing could happen, but just look at the stats.

USA more dangerous than Guatemala... OK....

Guatemala has the 4th highest murder rate in the world per 100,000 people.

The murder rate is 2600% higher per 100,000 than my home country of Canada. And 800% higher than the dangerous USA you mentioned.....

The crime and murders is even higher and worse than the dangerous country of South Africa, and that says alot....

Speaking of some of the worst and most dangerous countries in the world....It is even higher than Iraq.... 100% worse....

I would go to the USA for a trip without a second thought, not so to Guatemala...

So felicity, is this also official U.S. government propaganda as well????

List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


http://www.ocavi.com/docs_files/file_385.pdf

Crime

Guatemala City - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"In 2008, Approximately 40 murders a week were reported in Guatemala City alone. While the vast majority of murders do not involve foreigners, the sheer volume of activity and the limited resources makes local officials and police, who are inexperienced and underpaid, unable to cope with the problem.

The judicial system is weak, overworked, and inefficient further compounding the crime problem.[14] There have been proposals to create a criminal justice program in the country and require police officers to have such studies. Higher studies would also be coupled with higher pay. This has only remained in the discussion stage without any advances despite the increased criminal wave that has plagued the city and country in the past decade or so."

Seems to be dangerous to even go on the outskirts, this is an older post but helpfull to anyone going to Guatemala..

How I was robbed in Guatemala and the lessons I learned

Here is one story I was following, and it is not a unique one at all.

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Kent | Pupils robbed on Guatemala trip

Crime has really gone up the last 10 years, and there is guns everywere.

Perhaps you could make 10 trips and be ok, but it is defintely not Kansas anymore....

One thing I must say is this though, I was just viewing pics from my cousins and also brothers trips there this year, and one thing I noticed is that the nature is incrediably beughtifull there, and even around the capital can be very nice with all the vegatation.

I know many people who went, some were good, some not so good.

The place has many things going for it, like low cost of living, however low crime rate is just not one of them, Just keep an open mind people.

Take care all.

BEL-AIR,

Safety is one of those subjective concepts that mean different things to different people. Having landed a fighter jet on an aircraft carrier, at night, about 400 times, which is certainly not what most people would consider safe, I can tell you with a good deal of confidence that it can be done safely. Not, however without the proper training and experience. Without knowing what you are doing and watching your ass, you can end up with a bad experience.

Same thing goes for just walking down the street, anywhere. Without the proper mind set, bad things can happen. As one who has traveled extensively, throughout the world, I can attest to the fact that one’s personal safety squarely rests within, for the most part. Victims of personal attacks invariably put themselves in a vulnerable situation. Should you really get in to a beat up cab, at night, in Guatemala City, with a buzz on? We all make choices, all the time. How often do we really think about the potential ramifications of those choices?

In the flying world, we say that there is no such thing as a pure accident. Invariably, once all the smoke and flames settle, it turns out to be a chain of events which linked together to end up in disaster. At multiple points along the way, any number of opportunities existed which could have broken the chain of events before catastrophe resulted.

Same thing can be said for the most part about one’s personal safety, no matter where you are in the world. New York City or Guatemala City, makes no difference, there are places, times and circumstances that you just don't subject yourself to, unless of course you are a well equipped and trained member of a Swat Team. How many times have you heard it said that someone was "in the wrong place, at the wrong time"?

Having said all this, statistically, crime is relatively pervasive in Guatemala. Certainly not all of Guatemala, all the time. Are there effective ways to deal with it, absolutely. If you don't watch your ass, anywhere you go, someone just might have a piece of it.

I understand that systemically, there are lots of problems in Guatemala. Poverty, crime, unemployment, corruption, the list goes on; throw government, police and judicial complacency and complicity into the mix and the crime statistics get to looking very bad. There are plenty of understandable reasons why a criminal organization such as Panama Legal would operate out of Guatemala. Hell, with just the funds they stole from me, they could probably "buy" more than enough "protection" there, from the powers that be!

As Felicity has effectively pointed out, there are also many beautiful and positive aspects to the country, the weather, the scenery and most of the people. I say go and see, if you keep your wits about you, your nose clean and don't put yourself in harm’s way, you would most likely have a great time. I personally had every intention of going to Guatemala to check it out, that is until, death threats against me were issued, by Panama Legal et al.

By the way, I don't believe for one minute that Felicity is ”working" for Panama Legal. She has consistently contributed insightful and well thought out posts on the Legal Issues thread of this forum concerning Panama Legal and their shenanigans.

Be safe,

Chris

Well said Chris. I agree with you that how you carry yourself in public influences your safety a great deal. Criminals always go after the easy target so making yourself a hard target means you will most likely be left alone.

People get so obsessed with numbers and propaganda that they lose sight of reality. Well let them because I like to be surrounded by people who know better. Panama has received glorious praise over the last 6 years thanks to that front running real estate company I shall not name. People buy into their propaganda. They don't tell you the negatives or will sugar coat them. Once they are done selling out, they promote another country. It's a revolving door business for them. The problems with these type of pump and dump promoters is that they create a bum rush of interest (i.e. opportunists and vultures) which leads to artificial price inflation not to mention attracting a seedy element. Can you say price bubble? Panama has seen that and it appears the party is over. Ask the guy selling land in Pedasi for a big loss. A LOSS? In Panama? Yep.

I only pray that this real estate company never promotes Guatemala, Antigua in particular. I do not want to have to pay more for real estate nor do I want to be surrounded by opportunists and vultures. I like Antigua the way it is now and hope it stays that way.

Thanks for cheering me up Felicity about my loss. I would say as a country Panama is probably one of the best in Latin America if you are going to invest but I agree that prices got silly here. I have heard many good things about Guatemala but with the continuing "war on drugs" that is turning Mexico into a major hell-hole it will probably continue to spill into it's neighboring countries such as the USA and Guatemala. I still would like to go and visit Guatemala sometime. I know somebody personally that was just there and they enjoyed it.

Originally Posted by MRWOOHOO

Thanks for cheering me up Felicity about my loss. I would say as a country Panama is probably one of the best in Latin America if you are going to invest but I agree that prices got silly here. I have heard many good things about Guatemala but with the continuing "war on drugs" that is turning Mexico into a major hell-hole it will probably continue to spill into it's neighboring countries such as the USA and Guatemala. I still would like to go and visit Guatemala sometime. I know somebody personally that was just there and they enjoyed it.

Panama is great for investments because so many opportunities exist to fill voids. However I feel that Panama has become the land of opportunists and vultures. No matter where you go and overhear conversations from gringos, it's always biz talk and deal making. You have to wonder whether people are being nice to you because they genuinely want to get to know you, or they see you as an important contact or potential client. There's always that skepticism. When I visit Antigua or Lake Atitlan, I don't get that sensation. I don't feel the people there are focused so much on making money whereas in Panama it seems everyone is out to make a quick buck including the locals. That's just my honest observation. I just can't see myself retiring in the eye of the storm. You may have a completely different take on things though.

I agree Felicity, just about everybody in this country is a real estate agent and has got a "Great Deal" on a piece of property they know of. You hear all of the people just getting off of the plane talking about their "big investment". If you do go out to the interior there are still places that are a bargain to live cheaply. I rent a house for $200 per month here in Las Tablas in a decent neighborhood that I feel relatively secure in. No problems in 6 months and it has everything I need to be happy. Right now it is hard to find any land for sale in the area at anything less than $4/sq meter which is kinda crazy. A nothing house along the side of the road between Las Tablas and Pedasi can run $250K or more. Prices are all over the place.