Thread: Propertys are still going down

I have been keeping my eye on a couple of condos over the last year or so, following a recent trip to Panama city I was keen to see what the progress of these propertys was.

All 3 are still for sale and on average they have gone down 15k in 6 months basically to get a sale.
My only honest realtor told me he is seeing lots of interest but people are looking for bargains and are prepared to wait.
I also could not beleive how many new hotels are being built it certainly will increase the amount of people in the city.

Is it the time to buy I still dont know, how low can these places go, as an example a 2 bed in San Fransico started at 195k now the owner will take 160k furnished.

Tons of inventory on the market and more on the way will suppress prices. Also many Americans and now Europeans are learning that their retirements will not be what they thought 5 years ago. People have no equity left in ther homes and can't unload their underwater homes to buy a more expensive place in Panama. Just look at how many people were dogmatically in denial about TOC now they are having their asses handed to them on a plate. Panama is enjoying good growth and low unemployment due in part to the many projects currently underway. the canal expansion, subway, and many road improvements in the interior are helping the economy. These projects will start drying up in a few years but the debt that was incurred won't. Panama property prices will continue to fall in my opinion and the smart money is renting right now!!!

Interesting point when all the development has finished the country will be left with a big debt, however how much will this effect the foreign investers and propertys.
Really how low can a 2 bedroom go??

trying to guess the top or bottom of any market is a fools game. I think the trend going forward is lower prices. If investors rent instead of buying lower prices become a self fulfilling prophecy. When I look at all the empty ghost buildings and more under construction in PC I wonder where all the people are going to come from to fill them? as previously mentioned the great white hope won't be coming as their perceived wealth vanishes before their eyes. Also many people won't move to panama because the family dynamic is changing in the U.S. Many generations now living under one roof. Very difficult to tell three generations of family members they gotta move out because grandpa and grandma are moving to Panama. When all these buildings were planned in PC the whole world economic situation was different, many people no longer view real estate as a good investment.

Originally Posted by tompoker

Interesting point when all the development has finished the country will be left with a big debt, however how much will this effect the foreign investers and propertys.
Really how low can a 2 bedroom go??

lots of this development when finished will put money in the goverment bank account . they say now the canel makes $3 million a day , and will go to $5 a day , the transit system moves 1 million people a day , and at 45 cents a head has to make money i think . i do not believe we have seen the bottom yet , the states and europe still have a long way to fall . so prices will continue to fall here , and as more condos come online it will be a fight for the few buyers out there . as fleeted said , rent for now . and with the amount of interest that they pay at panama banks you can make some money while you wait . and if , and i dont think it will happen , there is a turning point up , then you will see it in the states and europe before here and you could invest before prices start to rise here .

I have never seen Panama City as an obvious retirement destination, it's noisy, polluted, with no beaches, etc. it is a business city.

Just bought a new 3 bed in El Cangrejo (Luxor Towers)..am hearing now that the government is spending $20m on improving Via Argentia..making it more pedestrian friendly..that should do me nicely. Also, when they have finished the metro there will be a stop in Via Argentina...

...If you want to invest, I reckon Via Argentia area is a good bet right now while the prices remain relatively low.

Originally Posted by EdBowers

I have never seen Panama City as an obvious retirement destination, it's noisy, polluted, with no beaches, etc. it is a business city.

I agree and when you add the heat and humidity to the mix along with the smell of the bay at certain times it is a deterent for some people.

Originally Posted by fleeted

I agree and when you add the heat and humidity to the mix along with the smell of the bay at certain times it is a deterent for some people.

and then there is the ones that buy all those condos , if you have to live there to work , then that is one story , but if you are retired , man i can not see why you would do that to yourself .

IMO... the market is going sideways with a slight trend downwards. Panama will probably never crash because of many of the "invisible X-factors" (drugs, ultra-wealth) that NULLIFIES most of the "supply and demand laws".

Fleeted is right about it's a fool's game to try to predict the bottom. There's great deals out there RIGHT NOW. And there will be great deals tomorrow and for years to come.

Long term (3 to 10 years) -- Panama will eventually swing back upwards unless there's a crazy dictator that comes in. In my opinion, it's hands down the best place to live in Central America. And it's one of the best tax havens to live in as well... Most tax havens are islands where you get bored out of your mind.

And the quality of life is slowly getting better: street lights, metro bus, cinta costera, the new metro, and high end malls.

I think if they have billions to spend on subways, canal exp etc... they could pony up just a little cash for some street signs. Making the city more user friendly wouldn't hurt it's image.

While we're at it... Where's the mailman? Zip codes?

That would be a HUGE upgrade to the infrastructure.

Originally Posted by fleeted

I think if they have billions to spend on subways, canal exp etc... they could pony up just a little cash for some street signs. Making the city more user friendly wouldn't hurt it's image.

Originally Posted by No-Non-Sense-Matt

While we're at it... Where's the mailman? Zip codes?

That would be a HUGE upgrade to the infrastructure.

Excellent points!!

From my experience, rents are also going down. I rented a condo 6 months ago for $1,500 (quoted lease was $1,700). Last month I rented the same condo for $1,300.

Originally Posted by expat747

From my experience, rents are also going down. I rented a condo 6 months ago for $1,500 (quoted lease was $1,700). Last month I rented the same condo for $1,300.

That is good news!! The market has been slow to correct in PC but appears to be doing so. Here is an article showing why Americans won't be arriving to fill those thousands of empty apts. 64% of Americans now worry about making ends meet at some point. Without being able to borrow tens of thousands on credit cards and then convienently wrap that debt into a 2nd or 3rd home mortgage Americans are suddenly not so rich. Production is the answer but those jobs are gone forever. 70% of the american economy is based on consumption that is why the problems are not going away. The idiots at the Fed and at the Whithouse believe printing more dollars and pumping them into the economy will save us. This might give a short term jolt to the economy but the underlying problems will remain. The inflation by such actions will wreak even more havoc.
News Headlines

Here we have a call by a Fed Gov for more QE News Headlines . Pumping more money into the economy and debasing the dollar is all they have left. The huge trade deficits the U.S has assures most of the money that is created and makes its way into the real economy is promptly shipped overseas. The prudent thing for Americans and Europeans to do is to start thinking like their grandparents and great grandparents. I remember my grandmother wasted nothing and saved common items we would throw away today. She lived through the bad times before and understood the value of a tangible item. What seemed unthinkable 5 years ago is the new reality for millions of Americans and millions more will wake up to the same reality in the coming years. Does it sound like these people will be looking to invest in the PC housing market?

Originally Posted by No-Non-Sense-Matt

While we're at it... Where's the mailman? Zip codes?

That would be a HUGE upgrade to the infrastructure.

in defence to panama , why do you need a mailman ? the United States Postal Service is a great example of a bad company , sucking on the goverment tit every year for more money , and with talk of it soon going bust , and we have postal codes in panama already , mine is 0749 .

Idiots who say there is no inflation don't realize that inflation does not mean price increases.
Inflation means there is more money in existence.
Most of the new funny money created was given to the banks and they redeposited it with the Fed, not loaning it out to people and businesses, not investing it in real estate or anywhere. Another huge chunk went to pay for oil and Chinese shit and is out of the USA. For now all that piles of cash is not in circulation in the USA AND STILL prices have climbed (food, energy). Now if the retards who demand China to float the Yuan get their wish the price of Chinese imports will skyrocket, the Chinese will step up their efforts to invest their dollars flooding the world and causing other dollar holders (cash and treasuries) to try to get rid of their pile before the $ loses all its value. Interest rates will have to rise and then the bailed out entities will no longer have their $ deposited with the Fed for 0.25% interest but will try to invest it at places with higher yield or get rid of it all together. THEN you will see all the price increases that the idiots deny to be the result of all the printing that took place already suddenly explode.
Once shit hits the fan the time frame for a complete meltdown can be days.
The Chinese maybe forced to float the Yuan because they for all instances are importing the inflation at the moment and raising interest rates without stopping the underlying cause (Yuan printing) only encourages carry trade, will only hurt the debtors in China without stopping the price increases. Hurting debtors with higher interest rates will collapse the housing market and manufacturers (and it already is beginning) and make buying food that much more expensive for the Chinese people.
Food riots and a revolution is surely to follow there too.
Once the Chinese raise the Yuan Americans will not find cheap Chinese shit on the shelves any more and nowadays 90% of EVERYTHING is made in China.
We are all fucked no matter what, a huge drop in the standard of living is inevitable world wide.
I just hope no anarchy and world war will follow because then hundreds of millions, maybe billions of people will die of hunger and radiation poisoning.

I am all cheerful this morning, lets hope I will not post on a day when I am actually depressed.

It appears to me that people get too fixated on the core Panama City condo market. I would propose that in total monetary value of construction and transactions, that there is more dollars flowing outside of this segment.

One segment of real estate that doesn't get mentioned is the burgeoning "middle class" market in Panama. The Government now supports (not sure how) mortgages for qualified people up to $80K I think and I heard that may be raised to $100k, The banks are chasing this market voraciously, just observe that banks are ~50% of the exhibit floor at the new home and construction shows whihc are packed with serious buyers. And it is a well structured mortgage market, more Canadian-like than American in that you must demonstrate you can actually afford the house. A friend told me of her colleague that applied and received a mortgage at one of the exhibitions at a 4.5% rate. Of course these folks aren't buying city center condos, but there are lots of new condo buildings around the city, as well as a lot of new subdivisions of 800-1,000 square foot homes.

My perception is that creation of a healthy middle class is a real positive step in a country's maturity. Panama still has a long way to go to encourage a larger and healthier middle class, but it has certainly grown over the past three years and I believe will continue to do, helping the tax base and creating more opportunities for internal growth.

Look beyond the city center investors!

Gary

I agree the middle class is where the production of any country starts. I fear the small but growing middle class will be wiped out because they use the dollar and don't know enough to protect themselves.

They are buying subsidized housing with subsidized loans with interest rates that no bank can possible make money on but they have to fill some quota. They also have 25 % of the US salaries while the houses are similarly priced to most of Florida by now. The loans might be underwritten by Banco Nacional. Prices are hence inflated as people just look at what comes out of the quincena and not what they can afford (value).

It's not the creation of a middle class, just bad debt.

History is repeating itself. History is repeating itself.

Originally Posted by gsfromc

It appears to me that people get too fixated on the core Panama City condo market. I would propose that in total monetary value of construction and transactions, that there is more dollars flowing outside of this segment.

One segment of real estate that doesn't get mentioned is the burgeoning "middle class" market in Panama. The Government now supports (not sure how) mortgages for qualified people up to $80K I think and I heard that may be raised to $100k, The banks are chasing this market voraciously, just observe that banks are ~50% of the exhibit floor at the new home and construction shows whihc are packed with serious buyers. And it is a well structured mortgage market, more Canadian-like than American in that you must demonstrate you can actually afford the house. A friend told me of her colleague that applied and received a mortgage at one of the exhibitions at a 4.5% rate. Of course these folks aren't buying city center condos, but there are lots of new condo buildings around the city, as well as a lot of new subdivisions of 800-1,000 square foot homes.

My perception is that creation of a healthy middle class is a real positive step in a country's maturity. Panama still has a long way to go to encourage a larger and healthier middle class, but it has certainly grown over the past three years and I believe will continue to do, helping the tax base and creating more opportunities for internal growth.

Look beyond the city center investors!

Gary

If you're able to use that zip code and mail something that arrives to my condo within 3 days using the Panama mail -- I'll mail you back $100.

Originally Posted by nakedguydb

in defence to panama , why do you need a mailman ? the United States Postal Service is a great example of a bad company , sucking on the goverment tit every year for more money , and with talk of it soon going bust , and we have postal codes in panama already , mine is 0749 .

I have actually found mail next to my door sent from abroad with the address like this:

Mr Nice
Calle XX
Edif Small, APO Y
Al lado Edif Big
Panama, Rep de Panama

What NIFOC is referring to is the post office codes where they have the PO Boxes. It's not a zip code covering an area, but just a number for a specific post office.

Originally Posted by No-Non-Sense-Matt

If you're able to use that zip code and mail something that arrives to my condo within 3 days using the Panama mail -- I'll mail you back $100.

Originally Posted by Sir Stressalot

Idiots who say there is no inflation don't realize that inflation does not mean price increases.
Inflation means there is more money in existence.
Most of the new funny money created was given to the banks and they redeposited it with the Fed, not loaning it out to people and businesses, not investing it in real estate or anywhere. Another huge chunk went to pay for oil and Chinese shit and is out of the USA. For now all that piles of cash is not in circulation in the USA AND STILL prices have climbed (food, energy). Now if the retards who demand China to float the Yuan get their wish the price of Chinese imports will skyrocket, the Chinese will step up their efforts to invest their dollars flooding the world and causing other dollar holders (cash and treasuries) to try to get rid of their pile before the $ loses all its value. Interest rates will have to rise and then the bailed out entities will no longer have their $ deposited with the Fed for 0.25% interest but will try to invest it at places with higher yield or get rid of it all together. THEN you will see all the price increases that the idiots deny to be the result of all the printing that took place already suddenly explode.
Once shit hits the fan the time frame for a complete meltdown can be days.
The Chinese maybe forced to float the Yuan because they for all instances are importing the inflation at the moment and raising interest rates without stopping the underlying cause (Yuan printing) only encourages carry trade, will only hurt the debtors in China without stopping the price increases. Hurting debtors with higher interest rates will collapse the housing market and manufacturers (and it already is beginning) and make buying food that much more expensive for the Chinese people.
Food riots and a revolution is surely to follow there too.
Once the Chinese raise the Yuan Americans will not find cheap Chinese shit on the shelves any more and nowadays 90% of EVERYTHING is made in China.
We are all fucked no matter what, a huge drop in the standard of living is inevitable world wide.
I just hope no anarchy and world war will follow because then hundreds of millions, maybe billions of people will die of hunger and radiation poisoning.

I am all cheerful this morning, lets hope I will not post on a day when I am actually depressed.

yes but,,,,,,, most only worry about who is winning on Dancing with the Stars . and when that goes off air , then there will be hell to pay . LOL

Originally Posted by No-Non-Sense-Matt

If you're able to use that zip code and mail something that arrives to my condo within 3 days using the Panama mail -- I'll mail you back $100.

i dont think they have door to door in panama do they ? out here we have to go to the post office , maybe they have a truckload waiting for you , LOL

When power goes off thanks to the shut down coal power plants and the only light they got is the one provided by the burning cars on the street they might start suspecting not all is well.

do you have to put up with this crap when trying to build in panama? Senator Mike Crapo speaks with Lou Dobbs on Fox Business News - YouTube
It seems the real power in the country lies with agencies who are accountable to no one. TSA type people who live to excert power over people. This is almost as bad as the USDA and FDA raiding Amish farms with swat teams because they make cheese from unpasturized milk, like they have done for a century or longer.

Here's a real gem!! Trap people into 30 year mortgages on underwater homes in hopes they will stimulate the economy with the $200 difference from the refi. This smacks of desperation folks pure and simple. They have run out of ideas and now they are going to try and recycle the dead housing market. Don't look for a boom in Panama Real estate, the shine is off the real estate market.
U.S. Government Expands Mortgage Relief - Bloomberg

Its seems like its less about helping the people and more about helping the banks, or business as usual

- This is only valid for Freddie and Fannie loans
- There is NO mortgage write down. If you are underwater your loan balance does not change, only your interest rate.

It appears this change shifts some of the liability from the Banks if a loan forecloses and puts it on the Freddie and Fannie, or onto the owners of Freddie and Fannie, the taxpayer

Foreclosure Plan Helps Banks At Taxpayers Expense

The housing market in the US has a long ways to fall yet. And that's assuming Europe\ The Fed\ Banks don't crash us first

Originally Posted by sjc

Its seems like its less about helping the people and more about helping the banks, or business as usual

- This is only valid for Freddie and Fannie loans
- There is NO mortgage write down. If you are underwater your loan balance does not change, only your interest rate.

It appears this change shifts some of the liability from the Banks if a loan forecloses and puts it on the Freddie and Fannie, or onto the owners of Freddie and Fannie, the taxpayer

Foreclosure Plan Helps Banks At Taxpayers Expense

The housing market in the US has a long ways to fall yet. And that's assuming Europe\ The Fed\ Banks don't crash us first

Excellent points!! With all this private debt being switched over to govt (tax payer) liabilities, one wonders if at some point the fed will roll all this toxic garbage into into some created entity. You know kind of encapsulate it so they can keep this party rolling. I can't wait to see what scheme they dream up next.