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from elsewhere::Originally Posted by soltero
"He posted numerous messages on several yahoo groups catering to foreign expats living in (or planning to move to) Panama warning people not to bank with HSBC because of poor service and excessive fees. Last year, the bank sued him civilly for defamation based solely on the yahooThat's exactly what I would do if somebody slandered my business.
group postings"
That's your choice, of course. I hope it serves you well.But your post assumes that what Mr. Gordon did constitutes slander; that is yet to be determined by the courts. In addition, you left out the part that HSBC not only sued him for $5 million, they also froze the assets of a Panama Foundation that was not legally connected to Mr. Gordon. That's the part that has a number of ex-pats biting their fingernails, because they've been told for years that those trusts were protected and unassailable. HSBC just proved them wrong.
I'll grant that the Foundation assets being frozen is a disturbing event and that I hope his currently open appeal get's heard in the higher courts and that he wins... otherwise Panama and their courts are sending the wrong message. I guess we'll have to wait for the result.That's your choice, of course. I hope it serves you well.
My experiences with HSBC Panama have been nothing but positive.
My concern with HSBC is the amount of the sub-prime crisis they are involved with? Do a Google search on "HSBC subprime problems", some interesting reading. I hope I don't get sued?
HSBC's argument was that he was representing the Foundation when he made his negative comments and as such the Foundation is included in the lawsuit.
"... unless the plaintiff can show that the foundation itself (through its governing body) committed the tortuous act or that the person being sued engaged in fraudulent transfers of assets to the foundation...."
Whereas Mr. Gordon has a different viewpoint:
"Mr. Gordon's lawyers argue that he is only authorized to open bank accounts for the foundation, that anything he might have said as a private individual on the Internet was separate from and had nothing to do with the foundation, and that private interest foundations cannot be sequestered according to Panamanian law" .. from Panama-guide
We'll see what the higher courts think, nothing has been proven up to this point either way.
HA HA!
I don't think attorneys are the primary route to selecting a bank. Fitchratings (and other ratings) and general stability in deposits are good handles.
You can find deposit information and rating for all Panama banks here: Banks in Panama - General License
and here
Banks in Panama - International License
The key to doing banking is DIVERSIFY! There is no deposit insurance so make sure to open as many accounts with various banks as possible.
Best wishes, Ed
Hello. Anyone please recommend me a bank for a corporate savings account that: 1) can receive swift directly and not through another bank, and 2) allows to send swift from the internet. Thanks in advance.
To my knowledge, there is no way to avoid the intermediate bank. This would be a Godsend.
On your invoices you should mark:
FFC-AccountNumber-CompanyName (WARNING!!!, REQUIRED!!!, PLEASE ADD TO BOX 72 IN YOUR SWIFT TRANSFER).
Otherwise you might just die in the process of receiving wires to Panama. If not in BOX 72, they will go bananas, hide under the desk for 3 days and then send your money back to where it came from. Possibly they will also harass you while doing this to make sure that you develop a well-deserved migrane for failing to inform your clients about the BOX 72 requirement.
The bank that I primarily do business with charge a fixed $15 for incoming wires and $115 for outgoing. After kicking and screaming the outgoing was brough down to $65 I think, but still way to high.
The best savings acocunt (up to 50k) that I have seen is with Global Bank. They currently pay 3.75 % and have an A+ Fitch rating. You can get more with non-rated and lower rated banks. I think they charge $10 for incoming wires, but it's impossible to get a straight answer in Panama. There could be a "documentation fee" and the intermediate bank can also steal money. Trial is the only way to find out normally. So, when you call around $25 can mean $55, $15 can mean $75. It's a jungle.
Lots of banks have a US check service that you could use. You pay $5-10 and get a check drawn on the banks US account with HSBC/JP Morgan/Wachovia or similar.
You can find a bank list for Panama here: Banks in Panama - List of Banks in Panama with a General License
Rule number 1 in Panama is to never use one bank!
I would do this (as of now):
Global Bank, 3.75 % for savings up to 50k. Incoming wires.
Multibank, everything over 50k in Plazo Fijos. Rates at 5% for 1 year CDs.
Banco Universal S.A., 3.75 % for savings. Use for US check service for $10 per check up to ~10k.
Maintain about 25-35 % of your savings balance with Banco Universal since they have a BB rating.
This is a good setup if you have local deposits of less than $200,000. If you plan on having more money in Panama you need to diversify more.
Contrail (08-15-2009)
Thanks, Ed... But, damn, it is scarier than I thought... and for an international finance center as Panama is being portrayed... There is more order in the banking sector in Ecuador... BTW, there should be a couple of Ecuadorian Banks in Panama, like Banco Pichincha, Produbanco, Banco del Pacifico, Banco de Guayaquil... Any experience with those? And how about just using Citibank? Is Citibank any good in Panama? Or any other big international bank: HSBC etc.? Any first hand experience with this one? How about sending swifts from the internet - the banks that your mentioned do that? Appreciate your comments.
I gave up on Panamanian banks Ed as they seem totally incompetent and the ATM's routinely debit your account when then machine is empty and you get no cash but mucha problemas for a refund.
However, if you can sort the wheat from the chaff and recommend ones that doesn't specialize in ever more unattainable entry requirements for foreigners compounded with yet more, I am all ears.
No experience with the Ecuadorian banks. It looks like they have very few employees, no ATMs and only one office in general. Almost all banks have international wire forms online though.
There has been at least one case here in Panama where the US/UK banks have broken the bank secrecy laws and published client names, balances and bank communications in the form of a lawsuit.
To my knowledge the people at the bank who did this are still walking the streets while jail time is mandatory by law.
Citibank is 80 % owned by Obama now I think so I assume that your privacy is owned by Obama too.
Depending on your level of business, explain that you need to send 20-50 outgoing wires per month and negotiate a flat rate ($25 should be possible) from the start. You can negotiate everything in Panama. I haven't bothered since I use the $10 check service instead.
---------- Post added at 09:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:35 AM ----------
Everything has been a near-death experience except for Banco Universal S.A. A David bank with two branches in Panama - one in Obarrio and one along Tumba Muerto: Banco Universal, S.A. - Panama Bank - A David, Panama Bank
They have a BB rating, but seem fairly stable regardless. They said they had an invoice fight with Fitch Ratings that got nasty of something.
If you have 2 bank ref letters + 2 personal ref letters you are guaranteed to get an account immediately. Send me a private message with your name and the date you will go in and I will notify the bank manager in Obarrio.
ok, Banco Universal then... they will rob you for outgoing swifts ah? We make 1-2 imports a month so 1-2 swifts a month... I will probably use some law firm to open a company and an account. Secrecy towards US is not an issue in my case. Reasonable fees and good e-banking is a priority. You mentioned Box 75? Is it in the bank's address? Thank you.
I don't think they have international wires requests on the web, but you could check with them how it's done and what they charge. Maybe you can email or fax a form.
BOX 72 in the swift is: "Sender to Receiver Information".
This field has to contain:
For Further Credit:
Beneficiary Account: 123456789
Beneficiary Name: MyNewCompany S.A.
or simply FFC-123456789-MyNewCompany S.A. on one line.
You can call around and ask some banks on this list: Banks in Panama - List of Banks in Panama with a General License
Keep in mind that you will just get that persons "best guess" as to what the outgoing/incoming wire fee is.
If a lawfirm help you with the bank they will probably recommend the one that they get the highest kickback (whether formal or informal) from.
Sorry, I wish I had more info about outgoing transfers.... I pay $15 flat for incoming and flat $10 for outgoing by US Bank Check (drawn on HSBC in NY)... Included with the $15 flat fee they actually credit wires without my account number and without company name if I fight them a bit. It is important that they give you a chance to correct mistakes by showing them the original wire transcript and prove that the information was in the wrong box or got lost on the way.
So, I use Credicorp for incoming wires and deposits of non-US checks in USD. Banco Universal has to send non-US checks in USD for collection ($120 fee). Outgoing is checks from Banco Universal.
I have generally found it much safer to deal with checks than wires. They are more predictable (15 business day hold and no fees) and very fail-free.
Once again - never get one account. You have to get 3 or more. There are a number of advantages from this:
1. If the bank starts going bad you can easily move your funds.
2. You can move your funds out when the bank provide bad service. When they provide good service you tell them and move funds back.... Let them know who is in charge....
3. Reference letters are needing if you need more accounts. If you have 3 banks you can get your reference letters. With one bank you have to get the second from a foreign country.
4. There is no deposit insurance. In case of a bank failure they pay everyone with 10k or less. Then they pay employees, municipal water, rent, social secuity debts AND MORE (all debts related to the government and employees as I understand it). So if you have more than 10k you will lose a significant amount of money. Hence you have to spread your funds in several banks.
And yes, get personal account while you are at it. Then you get a 20k "fake deposit insurance" with each bank....
Best wishes, Ed
PANAMA BANK GUIDE - LIST OF BANKS IN PANAMA
Thanks again, Ed. You know I checked the Ecuadorian banks and it looks like a real deal for us... Yes, you are right, they have only a small office in Panama, but I can deposit/withdraw funds here in Ecuador, all have online swift, bill payments etc. and from what you're saying about Panama, I have to admit that some banks here look - almost - like the ones in good old US: pretty efficient and all. At least the customer service will know exactly fees, services etc. But with the company have to go to Panama, the Ecuadorian ones are very high maintenance, and the taxes and tax control...
What do you sell or kind of business you're in if you don't mind me asking?
My troubles in Panama are way gone. The banks I work with know by now that they are "under the shadow of a rising knife"when they try to return a deposit due to some technicality and swiftly make up an arbitrary reason to clear it.
Good if you can deposit and withdraw for free from Ecuador. Then you have found the best option most likely.
Thanks for the great post! My wife and I are considering retireing in Panama and finding a good place to park our money in the most critical issue we are dealing with right now. I appreciate your attention to detail in this post.
I posted this in another thread as well. I hope that is ok.
Banks - in Canada if you have an HSBC account they will do all the paperwork to get you an HSBC account in Panama. I think HSBC anywhere in the world will do this. It costs about $200.00 and is well worth it. If you qualify for Premier status, there is no cost. It took about a month to get everything set up for my accounts. HSBC Panama sent my internet banking password, Clave cards with pin, and checks by courier to my Canadian address. They even did all the paperwork for me to apply for a credit card in Panama. I wired money to my Panama account and it was there in an hour. If you have Premier status, there is no charge for wires. If you need to open an HSBC account where you live, get one just to do this. I have tried to open Panama bank accounts using lawyers and paying hundreds of dollars without success. HSBC has "One World". Unfortunately, Panama is not on it yet. Google this.
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