Thread: Ciao

Hi everybody,
Obviously I'm a new member

I'm Italian aged 49 married with no children.

I'm considering Panama for relocation, probably I'll go first and wife will join later.

Both of us had been there for 3 weeks before so we have a general idea of what we could expect there but I know it'll be a long way before the final decision and further longer staying will be needed.

Probably I can live there as a person of mean but with a very poor life quality, so I'm intersted in some kind of job.

I have university degree as electronic engineer and I've been employed for more than 15 years as an IT professional reaching Project Management positions. Actually I'm self employed as a consultant, developing web sites, ecommerce and CRM systems.

I'm really interested in your opnions, tips and every bit of informations that can help me to eventually find opportunities in IT field.

I would prefere to avoid PC but, from what I read, that the only opportunities (if any) will be in PC.

Thank you in advance,
Mario

Ciao Mario, benvenuto. Di dove sei? Dove abituano adesso?
Where are you from, and where do you live now?

Read all the old posts-lots of useful information. The folks on this forum who are in Panama can give you timely and relevant answers to any follow-up questions you may have.

Again, welcome!

Hi Viviana,
actually we live in Roma

I've read lot of posts here and on other forms, but I hope people in this forum could help with tips about job/activity in the IT field.

Thank you for the welcome,
Hola

If you are self employed as a consultant, developing web sites and is good at what you do your best bet is to bring the job with you to Panama. Get contracts/projects in your own country and do the work from Panama, you only need your laptop, internet connection and a phone...

Hi Expat,
not that easy, it's rather difficult to secure a contract in Italy being in Italy, I don't think italian clients would give contracts to a panamian resident even if he happen to be italian.

Not to say that taxation would become a nightmare, you need to demonstrate that you are really living in Panama and, even if you succeed ,they will say that you have your primary interests and business in Italy.

Hi & welcome to the forum!!

It can be done as working as a consultant down here but you need to remember that PANAMA is a 3rd world country and wages are based on that. I don't care how good you are, you won't get paid like you did in Italy. I know a developer here that wouldn't spend $1500 on the development of a website and went to Costa Rica and paying $500. There are a lot of various people that have moved here and are doing ok, but they are out there trying to get more business and meeting people.

My own experience with creating my website was done in the U.S. for $200 back in 2001. My programmer is redoing the website now and should be ready in about 2 months with a lot more information, RSS feed, etc. This time he is charging me $500 to do all the work.

PANAMA is very protective of their people and if a Panamanian can do the job it won't go to an EXPAT. It is also very hard to get a work permit unless sponsored by a large corporation or if you have some talent that isn't down here.

Mary
www.whypanama.com

The general idea of course with computer based consulting is to have ZERO customers in Panama. Only a complete madman would want to have a Panamanian customer. You might want to look at: Freelancer.com | Online Jobs | Freelance Employment | Outsourcing Services | Programmers | Web Design | Freelancers

and similar sites - I know some people who scored work there (I wouldn't myself) but it's absolutely cut throat as far as competition. If you work for free for some time and build a great reputation it might work.

Hi Mary

Originally Posted by whypanama

It can be done as working as a consultant down here but you need to remember that PANAMA is a 3rd world country and wages are based on that. I don't care how good you are, you won't get paid like you did in Italy. I know a developer here that wouldn't spend $1500 on the development of a website and went to Costa Rica and paying $500. There are a lot of various people that have moved here and are doing ok, but they are out there trying to get more business and meeting people.

Very valuable answer, I understand that wages are lower than in Italy but the cost of living is also lower, think that my home in Rome has (theorical) value of something around 700000€ and it's not a luxury villa.

I think that, living in Panama, I could go for 500$ for a site similar to the one you own provided I can make a few in a month but this, as you say will depend on my ability to reach clients and this will be rather difficult o do in Panama with 0 contacts to start

Just out of curiosity, why is taking so long to develop your new web site and how can a U.S. developer work for 500$?

Originally Posted by whypanama

PANAMA is very protective of their people and if a Panamanian can do the job it won't go to an EXPAT. It is also very hard to get a work permit unless sponsored by a large corporation or if you have some talent that isn't down here.

I understand this and, believe me, I appreciate protection that PANAMA is giving to their people.

I eventually will apply for a permanent visa, maybe under the 'convenio de panama' that favours Italian citizens or eventually as a 'person of means', wouldn't this qualify me for a workng permit?

Mario

Originally Posted by EdBowers

The general idea of course with computer based consulting is to have ZERO customers in Panama. Only a complete madman would want to have a Panamanian customer. You might want to look at: Freelancer.com | Online Jobs | Freelance Employment | Outsourcing Services | Programmers | Web Design | Freelancers

and similar sites - I know some people who scored work there (I wouldn't myself) but it's absolutely cut throat as far as competition. If you work for free for some time and build a great reputation it might work.

Hi Ed,
would you mind to expand on your statement that one 'should be mad to have a panamian customer', that's the kind of stuff that someone considering relocating has to know.

I know the sites you linked but I don't think it's going to work Even living in Panama you can't compete with literally thousands of people tha can live on a few bucks a day in their caountries, I'm thinking Asia here.

I know that you are a sort of 'guru' here about investments, banks etc.

What would you think about a sort of hybrid approach, I mean try to live on the income generated from investments part in PANAMA and part in EUROPE to diversify risks while having a, probably small, business in the IT?

Mario

Hi Mario:
I really like my site and he is doing it as a consultant and I have told him to take his time because he is very busy and had a huge reputation in the Chicago area!

I generate about 3M hits a year from my website.

Mary
www.whypanama.com

That's really good traffic Mary.

Glad for you,
Mario

Yes, if she knew what she was talking about. To be in the top 100,000 as far as Alexa traffic rank you would have about 500,000 unique visitors per year. Her site is number 5.4 million as you can see when you go there.

I would guess she has about 100 visitors per day from this graph: Turning Alexa Traffic Rank into Unique Visitors

or about 35,000 yearly.

My guess is that her stupid web admin is counting css downloads, jpg downloads and everything separately to make her happy. Of course this is a complete distortion of facts and reality - but we are used to that in Panama by now!!!

Originally Posted by mario

That's really good traffic Mary.

Glad for you,
Mario

1. You would need a work permit.
2. You need to do accouting for your income.
3. You need to register with the DGI.
4. Annual tax return is needed.
5. Estimated taxes have to be paid EVERY MONTH.
6. They will pay you in turds.

If that isn't enough to convince you I can go on......

Originally Posted by mario

would you mind to expand on your statement that one 'should be mad to have a panamian customer', that's the kind of stuff that someone considering relocating has to know.

Sell the damn thing then. I am sure the European bubble will eventually burst, especially in Italy where people stopped having kids a few decades ago.

Panama does have an exclusive and very special relationship with Italy so make sure to use this to the fullest!

Originally Posted by mario

think that my home in Rome has (theorical) value of something around 700000€ and it's not a luxury villa.

I eventually will apply for a permanent visa, maybe under the 'convenio de panama' that favours Italian citizens or eventually as a 'person of means', wouldn't this qualify me for a workng permit?
Mario

LOL Ed,
it's not that differnt in Italy!!!

By the way I can't understand why for the same business, based in Panama, it would be different to have panamian clients versus aboad clients except for taxation fees and being paid in $ instad of turds

Do you mean that if you have only non panamiam clients points 1-6 do not apply?

About the working permit, I ask once again, supposed that you have a permanent visa doesn't this implies the working permit, or what kind of visas give youthe right to a working permit in Panama?

Mario

Originally Posted by mario

Do you mean that if you have only non panamiam clients points 1-6 do not apply?

Yes. In Panama no offshore income that is generated from the activity of you "directing" the business is taxable. Not only that, they do NOT CARE about anything in relation to this money.

Originally Posted by mario

About the working permit, I ask once again, supposed that you have a permanent visa doesn't this implies the working permit, or what kind of visas give youthe right to a working permit in Panama?

A solvency or pensionado visa does not give you a work permit for sure. I will not investigate this since I will never have a Panamanian client nor will I ever generate any local income.

Originally Posted by EdBowers

Sell the damn thing then. I am sure the European bubble will eventually burst, especially in Italy where people stopped having kids a few decades ago.

Panama does have an exclusive and very special relationship with Italy so make sure to use this to the fullest!

Didn't see this when I made the previous post.

I agree with you, probably the right way to go is selling my property and wife's one, and invest the money partially in real estate in Panama, and financial assets around the world, live from the income and forget about working, maybe do something for the community for free.

Obviously this will take some time if you are in a hurry to sell and to buy you are on the short side of the market.

I'm going to take full advantage from the Panama Italy relationship, it would be nice that some italian expat, if any, could jump in give some information about this point.

Mario

Yes, sell everything and buy where people still make babies (or allow immigation of better equipped people not worse). You cannot wait for Italy to fill up wide with people from the Middle east and Africa. For sure you won't want to live there at that point anyway. Pork is off the school menus all across Europe and it's only getting worse every day.

This migth help you: Panama Visa Italian Panama Italy Treaty

Get a birth certificate and a clearance record from the national police (wife too), apostille and bring to embassy for certification and you should be good to go. Do this on your first trip and get everything filed! Make sure to check with AT LEAST 3 different attorneys as to requirements. They are mostly idiots so you always need 3 (matching) opinions in Panama to be 90 % sure.

Even if you hate Panama it is still superb to have a second legal residency, especially in a country that does not tax any foreign source income and does not tax bank deposits. They do provide for a very nice opportunity to be sovereign here assuming you not mix with the locals (do not own anything basically).

Originally Posted by mario

Didn't see this when I made the previous post.

I agree with you, probably the right way to go is selling my property and wife's one, and invest the money partially in real estate in Panama, and financial assets around the world, live from the income and forget about working, maybe do something for the community for free.

Obviously this will take some time if you are in a hurry to sell and to buy you are on the short side of the market.

I'm going to take full advantage from the Panama Italy relationship, it would be nice that some italian expat, if any, could jump in give some information about this point.