Thread: Panama sounds right for us!

Hello Bob, you may want to check out:

Panama Real Estate - Panama Realtor
and
Clasificados de bienes raices y autos usados en Panama y Costa Rica

These are the two sites I got a good amount of info regarding real estate in Panama. Keep in mind prices in Panama can be extremely different depending on who you are talking to or what website you are looking at. From my understanding most of the good private schools are in Panama City area. Just an fyi, there is the Island of Taboga just 12 miles off the coast of Panama City and it looks like a very nice place to live with ferries running to Panama City (causeway), daily.

Salude

Thanks Yatzi, thanks Mrwoohoo,
I'll check out those sites, as for knowing what we're looking for its hard to say exactly. We've had 4 houses in 3 countrys and never known exactly what we were after, I think we'll only know when we see it, which is why we're looking forward to coming out and seeing for ourselves.
As for schools, I've found a list of 200 or so around the whole of Panamá in the yellow pages, should be very useful.
Thanks again, Bob.

What is the political situation like in Panama? Does it lean more towards socialism or something else? I know overall income taxes aren't as high as the US, but what about other issues?

This is capitalism, no doubt. Banks and attorney's run the country. There are other influences that effect the country and its politics. This is a real popular place in the world and many groups have strong interest. I give credit to the country for being as neutral and friendly to everybody as they are.

I would say I am pro-capitalism, something the US is slowly moving away from, so that is good to hear about Panama.

I guess pretty well all governments leave a bit to be desired. I once read that the Greeks tried about 300 forms of government including democracy, anarchy, communism, matriarchy, plutocracy etc, etc . There currently aren't any governments which give everything we want, so we just have to be happy with the good and grit our teeth about the bad. Panama seems to be pretty well middle of the road as far as governments. I was quite surprised at the laws in place to protect workers. Other places in this forum you find that if you hire someone you are required to provide a large number of paid vacation and holidays. Almost sounds like a lot of European countries. Canada is fairly socialistic but not nearly as much as Panama or some of those European countries.

The U.S. is far too large a country for socialism too exist. There are too many places for money to be wasted in government compared to a smaller country, such as Panama. That is why you can look at European countries, especially the Scandinavian countries, and see higher levels of health care and other areas. The thing that most bothers me about the U.S. is the blatant wasting of taxpayer's money. In a smaller country, I don't think there is as much of an opportunity to waste solely based on the size of the government.

Basically what I am saying, socialism doesn't bother me as much in a smaller country than in a larger country because it is easier to see where the money is coming from and going to.

What is the vehicle of choice for those living in Panama? How much does it vary based on different locations throughout?

As far as gun ownership goes, how does Panama stand? I read recently there was a move to ban firearms for civilians. How has this progressed?

KidChico,
With all due respect, I think you need to read some books about Panama. The Lonely Planet and Moon Guide are both excellent.

The reason I say this: There is virtually *no* similarity between Cozumel/Cancun and Panama, other than the fact that the natives speak Spanish. The closest thing we have to C/C is Decameron on the Pacific side, and even that's a very, very weak imitation. If you had been to C/C say, oh, about 15 years *before you were born*, then you would have an idea of what Panama is like.

Also, keep in mind that Panama is a very, very tiny country, both in terms of geography and population, and that affects everything. On the good side, you can find a lot of diversity in a very short distance (unlike Mexico, which is huge). On the bad side, for example, there are really only two cities in the entire country where you can get broadband access. And some stuff you take for granted in the US -- gringo foods, cheap electronics, auto parts, etc. etc. -- are difficult to find here.

But the biggest point about the diversity: It is *impossible* to lump the entire country into one bucket. E.g., I know people who love Boquete; I can't stand it for more than a day. Of course, they think I'm nuts for living in the city. Others call Isla Grande a paradise; I think it's nothing special, and prefer some islands on the Pacific side.

In short, until you get here and look around, you can't make any lifetime decisions. But you'd have a HUGE headstart if you'd read some books (instead of online forums, where there is a ton of questionable advice).

As far as cars: Well, choice depends on where you're living. In the city, you'll fit right in with a BMW or Prado or Sentra. In the interior, 4X4 is often a good idea.

And guns: Yes, the government is working hard to reduce the number of civilian firearms. As a foreigner, you should not count on owning a gun in Panama. And why would you want to live someplace where you need one?

One more thing I forgot, in my wet-blanket diatribe (above):

You know you need a visa to stay in Panama permanently, right? From your OP, it doesn't sound like you have a lifetime pension, which means you'd need to qualify under one of the investor visas, with a minimum buy-in of US$40K -- not including legal and government fees. Maybe that is not an obstacle for you -- but for some it is. Mexico's immigration barriers are much lower, btw.

Of course, if you or your wife were born in the Canal Zone, you qualify automatically -- but you didn't mention that in your OP.

Just a quick fyi, the immigration laws I believe have been reversed. You can be here 90 days, leave for 72 hours, and return for another 90 days. Your driver's license is good for those 90 days as well. Just swing by Costa Rica for a long weekend, no problem.

Soltero:
Thanks for all the info. So are you telling me that Panama is in no way a relaxed region, similar to Cozumel? Have you been to Cozumel/Cancun? If not, how can you say there is no similarity between the Yucatan Peninsula and Panama? Just by your response, I would guess you haven't been to C/C.
If I had been to C/C 15 years ago, I would be 8, not unborn. Again, I am trying to find some similar to compare against C/C. By what I've read, and I have read through a couple of travel books, it does seem as though Panama is more like Cozumel. We didn't care for Cancun, so I it doesn't matter if Panama is nothing like it.
Also, the problem with books, as I'm sure you would agree, is that many are dated. The travel books I looked at were about 5-10 years old, and I already knew some of the info was wrong.
You know I am just trying to get a general idea of what Panama, and even the surrounding areas are like, right? I'm not going to move down there on a whim having never visited the area, that would be ridiculous for anyone.
As far as the guns go, I guess I'll ask the opposite question: Why would you live in place where you can't have guns?
I recently purchased a gun, and although I don't live in a crime ridden area, I feel safer now knowing I can protect my house without having to get in a fist fight I risk losing. I would say intruders are more scared of an armed homeowner than a homeowner with a phone.
Please read this.

MRWOOHOO: That is very interesting about the recent change. Do you suppose there is a limit to how many times a person could do that? It's not like someone could do that for years, could they? Anyway, that's cool, thanks for the update!

I am truly not sure if there is a limit? I have been told people from the US have been living here 7 years or longer without ever getting a "real" visa. I have met somebody living in Boquete that actually mails his passport to somebody in Costa Rica and they put a stamp on it and mail it right back, no kidding.

So are you telling me that Panama is in no way a relaxed region, similar to Cozumel?

Well, I would not call C/C relaxed, but that's a matter of perspective. Everyplace in Panama other than PC is pretty darn relaxed. Yes, of course there are similarities between C/C and Panama, but, imho, there are far more differences.

Have you been to Cozumel/Cancun?

Yes, about three years ago.

If I had been to C/C 15 years ago, I would be 8, not unborn.

You said you are 23; I said if you had been to C/C 15 years before you were born -- i.e., 38 years ago -- you would have some idea as to what Panama is like now.

Again, I am trying to find some similar to compare against C/C. By what I've read, and I have read through a couple of travel books, it does seem as though Panama is more like Cozumel. We didn't care for Cancun, so I it doesn't matter if Panama is nothing like it.

Again -- my opinion only -- Panama is very different. But, you may love it. I'm not trying to talk you out of it, only suggesting that you visit.

Also, the problem with books, as I'm sure you would agree, is that many are dated. The travel books I looked at were about 5-10 years old, and I already knew some of the info was wrong.

With all due respect, there is still a ton of useful information, even if some prices and phone numbers aren't up to date. The guy who wrote the Moon Guide was born and raised in Panama, and offers a very, very knowledgeable (and loving) view of his former home. The Lonely Planet and Moon books are both about three years old; the new Moon will be out this Fall.

You know I am just trying to get a general idea of what Panama, and even the surrounding areas are like, right?

Yes -- and the first mistake that people make on forums like these is to talk about Panama as if it were one homogenous place. As I tried to explain, different regions are very, very different from one another, even though it is a very small country. To say whether you'll like Panama or not is the equivalent of trying to tell someone they'll like the USA; lots of people in NYC (or wherever) can't handle Montana (or wherever), and vice versa. Bocas is completely different from Boquete which is completely different from Los Santos which is completely different from the city etc. etc. etc.

I'm not going to move down there on a whim having never visited the area, that would be ridiculous for anyone.

Good. Read, ask questions in advance (as you are), plan a two-week itinerary, and see as much as you can.

As far as the guns go, I guess I'll ask the opposite question: Why would you live in place where you can't have guns?

I'm not going to touch that in a Panama forum. But the fact remains, the government here makes gun ownership very, very difficult. Ditto Mexico.

MRWOOHOO: That is very interesting about the recent change. Do you suppose there is a limit to how many times a person could do that? It's not like someone could do that for years, could they? Anyway, that's cool, thanks for the update!

While Woohoo is stating the reality, you should also know that Panama immigration is trying hard to crack down on these permanent tourists who leave the country for a few days every three months. In fact, reforms are underway to create a different class of visa for snowbirds who come here six months out of the year. But to do what he is describing is clearly against the intent of Panama's law. And -- again my opinion only -- it would be a big mistake to plan a move to a country where your residency is at best risky and at worst illegal.

One final thought -- and I am NOT trying to talk you out of Panama: If you liked Cozumel so much, why are you not looking to move to Mexico? There are lots of wonderful places there, still relatively undiscovered, and costs are comparable to Panama. (I lived in Mexico for two years.) Plus, residency requirements are much, much easier. Just for consideration, not argument. :-)

Renewing the tourist visa is in no way illegal. I personally feel the government recognizes that people from some countries come to Panama, spend money, and "usually" create less problems although there are exceptions. My attorney, that is fairly connected in government, was trying to push me to declare a visa until the change happened. He is also incredibly honest. If you can show me that it is in anyway illegal I would be honestly interested.

Mailing it is Illegal.

Thanks Soltera for your balanced comments.

From my experience living in foreign countries, I am convinced that attempts to bypass the legal provisions by mailing passports etc, is both wrong and shortsighted. When I settle down, I don't want to be looking over my shoulder all the time, wondering if those two men walking toward my house are from Immigration armed with questions. I don't want to increase my stress level, I want to reduce it.

Same thing with tax evasion : shortsighted and stupid. Laws are generally passed for valid reasons for the good of the general population. When we cheat, lie and secretly violate laws, we end up damaging ourselves.

But hey! What do I know?

I did not say that getting a new tourist visa by leaving the country for 72 hours is illegal; I said that is contrary to Panama's intent in granting the tourist visas: viz., are those people you know who have lived here for seven years really tourists? Of course not; why is Panama not within its rights to close that loophole? And it is a fact that the government is trying to create a new class of visa for these people. See http://primapanama.blogs.com/_panama...ion/index.html for a pretty good roundup of recent activity, and http://baumanblog.sovereignsociety.c...-immigrat.html for a summary of the proposed new immigration laws.

I never said Panama is not within it rights to do whatever it feels. It does seem as though Panama's "intent" depends on who you talk to. In a world that is having major financial problems, do you really want to make it harder for people that contribute to the economy to stay here? No doubt Panama does have issues with some foreigners. In general though it is not with people from North America or most of Europe so why mess with a good thing? I will say those are good links that you added in regards to visa's.

Yours is a moral argument, Woohoo, and I agree that many (most?) of the permanent tourists in Panama do far more good than bad. But this thread was started by someone who is considering moving to Panama, and I was answering, as objectively as possible, in that vein. Towit: To plan a permanent move to *any* country without thoroughly researching the availability of legal resident status, would, in my opinion, be a mistake. Now, if someone chooses to move to another country and maintain tourist status, I guess that is their business; I just happen to disagree. I believe that once you have decided to live here (or anywhere), you should follow the legal path that that country has prescribed for permanent residency. Btw, as you know, for most of last year in Panama, tourist visas for US and Canadian citizens were only good for 30 days. That meant that all those who were here playing the turista game had to make a weekend trip somewhere every month; not my idea of a pleasant way to settle in to a new home. Your mileage may vary, of course.

Well, I am not sure how much moral's plays a factor in my decision to reside on a tourist visa as much as economics. I really did do my homework before moving to Panama and I was very aware of the different visas. Personally I hope to declare some form or permanent residency at some point. Having to commute to Costa Rica to renew visa and knowing that Panama can change laws at any time does not make me feel any better. I do currently own land and have started a corp but I am still a fairly small investor trying to start a new life. Once again the links you provided are excellent and I agree that people should really find out what is involved before making the big step. I always suggest meeting with at least one attorney if not multiple attorney's and to create a list of questions. First consultation is usually/always free.

Okay, fine, I am tooting my own horn here, but I just wanted to let you know I had many of the same questions when I wanted to come to Panama from Canada. I found it very difficult to find answers, so since coming here I've started HelloBoquete.com to try to provide as much info as I could find, all in one place. Although it is obviously focused on Boquete, there is also a great deal of info about Panama in general. Look under the "facts" section. Hope that helps with your decision.

Cheers!

(Total plug - HolaBoquete is in the works, as is HelloDavid, HelloVolcan and HelloBocasdelToro, also all to be in Spanish as well.)

Originally Posted by kidchico

Needs:
-Pet friendly
-Jobs
-Warm weather
-Internet
-Food
-Electricity
-Apartment


Wants:
-Close to ocean (warm)
-Close to medium size city (50,000-100,000)
-Somewhere to work out
-TV
-Housekeeper
-A/C
-House (Bed & Breakfast?)
-English speaking area
-Motorcycle


Don't want:
-Snow
-Cold
-Flooding
-Hurricanes
-High taxes
-To live in the middle of a big city

Does this list sound like something that can be accomplished in Panama?
I doubt we would be able to move for a few years, but we want to vacation in Panama within the next year.
Any input? Feel free to ask any questions you feel might be able to better help you give us advice! I am continuing to learn what I can about Panama!

For the most part, your expectations (hopes) are reasonable, but you should be made aware of the following: You place a very high premium on high temeratures, but you should be aware that the this tropical (rainforest) region is accompanied by soffocating high humidity. Another byproduct of the region is rain almost daily for eight consecutive months a year.

Your preferences with regard to city size, proximity and location within same, could be a tad dicey for fulfillment. From a logistical standpoint, only a slight compromise on your part would be required. I'll have you know that the waters of the Pacific ocean laps at the shores of Panama City, which is not of medium size, nor do you have to live in the middle of it...

So would you recommend a certain area to visit first? And what if wanted to stay for an extended stay, maybe 2-4 weeks? Is there a good website to find temporary rentals? I think we would also consider staying people down there and just paying them rent.

Originally Posted by Panamax

For the most part, your expectations (hopes) are reasonable, but you should be made aware of the following: You place a very high premium on high temperatures, but you should be aware that the this tropical (rain forest) region is accompanied by suffocating high humidity. Another byproduct of the region is rain almost daily for eight consecutive months a year.

Your preferences with regard to city size, proximity and location within same, could be a tad dicey for fulfillment. From a logistical standpoint, only a slight compromise on your part would be required. I'll have you know that the waters of the Pacific ocean laps at the shores of Panama City, which is not of medium size, nor do you have to live in the middle of it...

Thanks for the input! My favorite part is the daily rain for eight consecutive months a year. Sounds like Oregon! Now, just to differentiate, the rain there is cold and the temperature is in the 40s and 50s and it is windy as well with plenty of fog, right? I guess I would have to visit there first to see if I could stand all the rain.

As far as the city size and location goes, as long as we are comfortable, we'll be fine.