Thread: El Valle Trip Report

Originally Posted by Gordo

I had a pretty good chocolate cake at the El Rey last night. When I say pretty good I mean edible. 95 cents for a slice. Their 50 cent Duran cappuccino is decent too because it is dispensed by a machine and therefore no one can screw it up.

But I agree that baked goods are generally bad in Panama. I find it odd how after I cross the border at Paso Canoas there is a bakery called Super Pan that delivers excellent baked goods, even pizza. The border town itself is a complete dump but there is a ton of good shopping there. Chicken Bros. serves up a delicious Tex mex chicken fajita. Blows away anything you can get in Panama. I'm not taking stabs at Panama but look at the clues. 100ft past the border into Costa Rica and the food is done right. Not all of it, but at least they have great bakeries and chicken fajitas.

I will say the pan de huevo is excellent. That is some of the best bread I've ever eaten. They just can't seem to get the cake/icing thing right. The wife of one of my co-workers at Howard AFB started a cake baking business in her on-base home. She made a small fortune providing cakes for promotion, retirement and change of command ceremonies to military organizations/individuals on Howard AFB and Ft Kobbe.

True, bread and rolls are good here. Cakes, cookies and pastries, not so good. Chino bakeries? Inedible. I think it's a matter of freshness too. Panama stores don't seem to throw anything out even if it's stale. They sell everything out. I've bought brick hard pastries at Super99 before that were completely inedible. Never again. Standards, people. Come on and get with the program!

Originally Posted by Gordo

Take a look at Albrook/Clayton. Reminds me of the USA.

This is not a pro for me lol

Actually i think i live in the best place in the city. Right at the edge of parque omar. i'm close to everything but still its pretty quiet here. i can walk my dog in the park and go for runs in the night when it cools down a bit, but am within a few minutes from multiplaza, restaurants, or rey supermarket. i like albrook too but its a bit too quiet for me. i go to albrook mall occasionally, but prefer multiplaza.

But if i were to retire, and was browsing the web or the world for a dreamplace to live, panama wouldnt even make it to my top 10.

Originally Posted by janl

This is not a pro for me lol

Actually i think i live in the best place in the city. Right at the edge of parque omar. i'm close to everything but still its pretty quiet here. i can walk my dog in the park and go for runs in the night when it cools down a bit, but am within a few minutes from multiplaza, restaurants, or rey supermarket. i like albrook too but its a bit too quiet for me. i go to albrook mall occasionally, but prefer multiplaza.

But if i were to retire, and was browsing the web or the world for a dreamplace to live, panama wouldnt even make it to my top 10.

Thanks for the tip janl. Many parts of Albrook are quite jungly which I like and there actually is a lot of raw undeveloped land there, but the cost per m2 is way out there. How do you manage having a dog in the city? Do you have a yard? I've got many dogs so I must have a good sized yard at least.

Living in the interior, it's easier to get to Albrook because all buses stop there plus if you drive just hop over the new bridge, immediately exit south and it's a very pretty drive to the mall.

I meant Albrook is like the USA in the sense it is very clean and well kept and the people carry themselves more professionally. There also seems to be a more international crowd there. Coming from the Coronado area which as I said before feels a bit like living in da hood it gets demoralizing at times. I eat at the fondas and shop at the chinos a lot which have that seedy unsavory vibe if you know what I mean. Every time I visit Albrook and eat there it reminds me of the place I left which let's be honest is much more attractive than Panama. However, the politics sucks in the USA which is one reason most people leave including me.

If you go to Paitilla and go to Metsuyan ask for the "Chocolate Explosion". Easily the best chocolate cake in Panama. Hold up to global standards.

I'll tell ya guys, my trip to Panama next month is sounding more and more interesting the more I read these posts. I'm really confused about a lot of stuff. For example, Coronado is a place a lot of expats live, but the place is a dump. Some people say El Valley's weather is pretty temperate, but others say that it's not much cooler than Coronado. Some people say Panama is the place to retire (mainly from other websites), but people here say they would never consider making Panama a place they would want to retire (but they are still living there?), and never say what other places they would prefer to live. I have traveled a lot throughout Central America and done a lot of research, and from what I see, none of the countries, including many South American countries don't sound too appealing. Some people say the beaches north of Coronado are nice, others say they are dirty and the water is full of trash. I realize that everybody is coming from a different place, and what one person thinks is nice, another person might not, but I am a little surprised at the extremes of the opinions. Boy, I want to make this trip more than ever before. I gotta see this for myself. One question and I don't mean this is a bad way, but, is there anyone living in Panama that likes it there and is happy they made the move? Just curious.

Hi John!

My husband and I are very happy we made the move 6 years ago from the Chicago area. His s.s. goes a long way compared to the U.S. and I would still have to be working if we were in the states - there is 18 years difference between us and we have been together for 26 years now! Actually my husband hasn't been back to the US in 5 years!! We live strictly on his ss because where he worked for 30 years didn't have retirement plans or 401K - just what we did on our own.

We are about 18 KM from El Valle and 12 KM from the PanAmerican Highway. We have the nice cool breezes of the mountains and don't have a/c. There are times when it can be hot in El Valle, but for the most part it is always cooler then on the beach and Coronado. You do tend to get a lot more rain in El Valle because of the town is surrounded by mountains and the continental divide. You are at around 3000 ft. above sea level at the top before you start your curvy decent into the town which is about 1800 ft. above sea level. Where I am at is at 1183 ft. above sea level.

The beaches on the "Pacific Riveria" (Coronado to Farallon) are decent, but nothing like the Caribbean. There are a lot of rivers that dump into the Pacific in the area and so when there is rain the water is dirty. Needless to say if you want to go deep sea fishing you need to go out about 3 hours. There is no decent snorkeling in this area.

Yet for the most part you are between 1 and 2 hours to Panama City. Coronado is becoming a central hub for shopping - there are 2 24-hour pharmacies/grocery stores with a 3rd one opening in the near future. There is a 24 hour clinic that is about 2 years old. A lot of restaurants from McDonalds, Subway, KFC, Dominos to The Chef, Picasso Pizza, Cholo's Mexican, etc. There is a lot of building going on of little strip malls on the main road to the security gate of Coronado and on the PanAmerican Highway. There are a lot of expat that reside year round in Coronado, but at the same time there are a lot of upper-class Panamanians with weekend homes. On weekends it is a zoo in Coronado with all the people from the city and their children - a lot of these kids think they own the place and are inconsiderate brats on the roads and restaurants.

Just come on down and experience it for yourself. You will notice that we are in the rainy season and the city it gets a lot more rain then here. The heaviest rain will be in November and it drops off significantly in December. January - April there is very little or if any rain, but the wind really picks up!

See you soon!!

Mary
www.whypanama.com

Originally Posted by John22

I'll tell ya guys, my trip to Panama next month is sounding more and more interesting the more I read these posts. I'm really confused about a lot of stuff. For example, Coronado is a place a lot of expats live, but the place is a dump. Some people say El Valley's weather is pretty temperate, but others say that it's not much cooler than Coronado. Some people say Panama is the place to retire (mainly from other websites), but people here say they would never consider making Panama a place they would want to retire (but they are still living there?), and never say what other places they would prefer to live. I have traveled a lot throughout Central America and done a lot of research, and from what I see, none of the countries, including many South American countries don't sound too appealing. Some people say the beaches north of Coronado are nice, others say they are dirty and the water is full of trash. I realize that everybody is coming from a different place, and what one person thinks is nice, another person might not, but I am a little surprised at the extremes of the opinions. Boy, I want to make this trip more than ever before. I gotta see this for myself. One question and I don't mean this is a bad way, but, is there anyone living in Panama that likes it there and is happy they made the move? Just curious.

Let me address some of your questions.

-Coronado is NOT a dump. It is a nice town. There are brand new strip malls being built on the main entrance that are beautiful. But mixed with that are some old structures like the corner of Las Lajas where the mini super is that all the locals shop at. That is a dump with garbage strewn everywhere. Also across the corner from that is an abandoned building. That also is a dirty smelly dump. A few cantinas are nearby that are local watering holes for the workers. They are all dumps full of drunks, druggies and skanks. The locals all ride buses and they gather together sitting on benches waiting for buses. It has kind of an inner city vibe near the entrance of Coronado, but at the same time the town is becoming more beautiful. So to answer your question some parts of Coronado are modern and beautiful while other sections are dumps. They are mixed together, but over time the new will replace the old.

- El Valle is typically 5-10 degrees cooler than Coronado. But the humidity is about the same. It rains far more often up there. A 5 degree difference is not much but usually it feels much cooler in El Valle although sometimes just slightly cooler.

- Panama is a great place to retire for a lot of people. But if you are looking for something specific like I am then you may not find it in Panama. In that case you must look elsewhere. But you have not even started your scouting trip yet so you are still in discovery stage. After you visit Panama then you will have a better feel for whether or not it clicks for you.

- Panama has many different micro regions that are uniquely independent and are nothing alike. That means these generalizations you read about don't apply to all parts of Panama. They are all localized.

- The beaches on the Pacific starting from Punta Chame on up to Rio Hato are all much nicer than the Pacific beaches in California and also much warmer. They don't stink and have sea weed washed up all over the beaches like in California. However in Panama after heavy rain storms the rivers will dump garbage into the ocean that ends up washing up on the beaches. Locals living riverside like to dump their trash in the rivers. I've seen a car bumper wash up on a beach here but it's mostly small plastic stuff that floats. The garbage eventually either gets washed out to sea after high tide or residents pick up the trash. So the beach becomes clean again. My point is the beaches are dirty only sometimes. Most of the times they are clean.

- If Panama was not so darn hot and humid and the dining and entertainment scene were better outside the capital then I would consider staying here. What I want are big city amenities wrapped in a small town package with a moderate climate. I also want a higher standard of excellence where people are proud and like to show off their capabilities rather than get away with the minimum possible. I can't find that in Panama and if you can I'd like to know about it.

Thanks for all the information. I hope I didn't come across as being negative. It just shows that I need to see Panama for myself and experience the positives and negatives on living there. I agree Gordo with your not liking the heat and humidity. I've been living in Florida for the past three years, and it does take some getting used to, but I'd rather not have to get used to it. That is definitely not a positive thing about living in a tropical area. The only place I have ever lived that had great weather was California, but have to have a lot of money to live there. To rich for me.
Anyway, thanks again for you and Mary taking the time to clarify things.

I believe it's kind of a pointless question. People have always through history shown that they are unable to properly analyze the suitability of the piece of land they live on and the country + the luggage it comes with.

1. If you ask a random person if their country is the best country in the world, 90 % will say yes. That is just nationalism or lack of other options and experience.

2. People put too much statistical weight on their own experiences. If you study overall tax pressure, government corruption, crime, international school rankings, demographics, wealth distrubution and domestic product / industry types you get a better picture. Maybe reading 200 opinions would give you an average if you can process the information.

3. 95 % of foreigners here would be equally happy or better off in many parts of Colombia, Costa Rica, Chile, Argentina and Uruguay.

4. I paid $2000 for my vacation so I will like it regardless. If you have built a house and many other things you might be fully invested. People will force themselves to like it then and get used to the problems or laugh at them.

Panama is nothing more or less than anything else really - you can develop a social life and have fun here - it is also a great hub for travelling all over the Americas. It has a very dysfunctional government - the best thing about it is that it is small and only collect about 10 % of the domestic production. When the government grows over time here the country will become unbareable to live in. Comparing to European countries with a 50 % tax pressure and the US at 30 % it's still quite good.

Before I moved here I looked for a country that did not tax foreign source income. I found that Panama, Costa Rica, Uruguay and Paraguay were my options with also Chile granting a 3 year exemption.

Panama in this case is hence the lesser of five evils.

Originally Posted by John22

One question and I don't mean this is a bad way, but, is there anyone living in Panama that likes it there and is happy they made the move? Just curious.

Originally Posted by John22

I'll tell ya guys, my trip to Panama next month is sounding more and more interesting the more I read these posts. I'm really confused about a lot of stuff. For example, Coronado is a place a lot of expats live, but the place is a dump. Some people say El Valley's weather is pretty temperate, but others say that it's not much cooler than Coronado. Some people say Panama is the place to retire (mainly from other websites), but people here say they would never consider making Panama a place they would want to retire (but they are still living there?), and never say what other places they would prefer to live. I have traveled a lot throughout Central America and done a lot of research, and from what I see, none of the countries, including many South American countries don't sound too appealing. Some people say the beaches north of Coronado are nice, others say they are dirty and the water is full of trash. I realize that everybody is coming from a different place, and what one person thinks is nice, another person might not, but I am a little surprised at the extremes of the opinions. Boy, I want to make this trip more than ever before. I gotta see this for myself. One question and I don't mean this is a bad way, but, is there anyone living in Panama that likes it there and is happy they made the move? Just curious.

I am one, that is happy , been here over 3 1/2 years and have never left the country . I believe panama is what you make it . I made it good in my mind , others not so good . it is not like back home and back home is not like panama . now if I had to live in the city I would be gone , in my mind it is a chit hole . but others like it , so whatever you make it in your mind .

Originally Posted by Gordo

Thanks for the tip janl. Many parts of Albrook are quite jungly which I like and there actually is a lot of raw undeveloped land there, but the cost per m2 is way out there. How do you manage having a dog in the city? Do you have a yard? I've got many dogs so I must have a good sized yard at least.

Living in the interior, it's easier to get to Albrook because all buses stop there plus if you drive just hop over the new bridge, immediately exit south and it's a very pretty drive to the mall.

I meant Albrook is like the USA in the sense it is very clean and well kept and the people carry themselves more professionally. There also seems to be a more international crowd there. Coming from the Coronado area which as I said before feels a bit like living in da hood it gets demoralizing at times. I eat at the fondas and shop at the chinos a lot which have that seedy unsavory vibe if you know what I mean. Every time I visit Albrook and eat there it reminds me of the place I left which let's be honest is much more attractive than Panama. However, the politics sucks in the USA which is one reason most people leave including me.

No i dont have a yard, but i have a 10+ yr old golden retriever who pretty much sleeps all day lol and when i go downstairs im right in the park. I would prefer something with a garden, but most somewhat affordable places in the city with a garden are shitholes, and i dont wanna be outside the city too far. For many dogs an appt doesnt work, but with one oldie its alright

Originally Posted by nakedguydb

I am one, that is happy , been here over 3 1/2 years and have never left the country . I believe panama is what you make it . I made it good in my mind , others not so good . it is not like back home and back home is not like panama . now if I had to live in the city I would be gone , in my mind it is a chit hole . but others like it , so whatever you make it in your mind .

The City isn't so bad as long as you don't stay too long. Bocas is paradise in my mind but I also like the Pedasi area.

I am finalizing my trip to Panama for next week. The only town I am not sure is worth a visit or not is Santiago. I can't seem to find much info. on any website. This a retirement planning trip. Can anyone give me some ideas about checking this place out. Thanks

Originally Posted by John22

I am finalizing my trip to Panama for next week. The only town I am not sure is worth a visit or not is Santiago. I can't seem to find much info. on any website. This a retirement planning trip. Can anyone give me some ideas about checking this place out. Thanks

well i go there because it is the closest DOIT center to me ( think home depot ) there would be no other reason in my mind to ever go there , just a run of the mill town , nothing great but nothing bad either , buts that just my thought , you might like it ,

I agree with that assessment of Santiago. Fine if you need to buy something, otherwise don't bother.

While I didn't do as much as you did when I was there (a woman took me to her place up in the mountains), I didn't think it was all THAT.

I still don't see why people think it's so great.

Wish I could have tasted some of the restaurant food, but we never got a chance b/c the little buses that take people up the mountains stop after a certain early time on Sundays & Mondays. No taxis either. And their electricity in the mountains goes out quite a bit & they don't fix it for 1-2 days. I also heard the water went out too. Not to mention they don't take care of the roads.

My only highlight was that I got to taste some GREAT produce from the mountain people. I liked it even more than Thomas' organic produce.

Now I have to find a way to get me some of that here in the city LOL


Michelle

Michelle you evidently didn't go to El Valle - the heading of the thread. Because what you described is definitely not El Valle/Anton Valley.

Mary
www.whypanama.com

Originally Posted by janl

I think this every time i hear people talk about how great panama is. Havent they been anywhere else? I dont hate it here, not at all actually, but it is very very low on my retirement list. There are so many nicer places in the world.

Care to share your list of nice places? I'm curious as everyone has their own opinion of course


Michelle

Originally Posted by whypanama

Michelle you evidently didn't go to El Valle - the heading of the thread. Because what you described is definitely not El Valle/Anton Valley.

Mary
www.whypanama.com

Mary, I'm not here to argue with you, I think I know where I was. I already stated I was up the mountain about 15 minutes further, but that is still considered El Valle & I was also in the center of town too.

It was also raining the entire time. I didn't realize it rains so much there compared to PC.


Michelle

Originally Posted by sensualspirit

Mary, I'm not here to argue with you, I think I know where I was. I already stated I was up the mountain about 15 minutes further, but that is still considered El Valle & I was also in the center of town too.

It was also raining the entire time. I didn't realize it rains so much there compared to PC.


Michelle

El Valle is the town itself once you cross the bridge towards the waterfalls you are in a different little "suburb". That is why the area is called El Valle/Anton Valley. I agree with you once you leave the town and head further into the rainforest past the mountains towards the "mesa" or the Caribbean side you are out in the middle of nowhere. Things are a lot slower and the buses don't run at night because the roads suck and there are no lights. A couple of years ago a bunch of young kids decided to drive the back road to the PanAmerican Highway that comes out in Anton and drove right off the cliff and 2 of the 4 died.

Once you leave the town of El Valley and head further into the rainforest forget about decent roads. As for electricity when you get into rural areas they aren't a priority about fixing downed wires. You even hear about people buying generators because of the erratic electricity in the rural areas. Panamanians just go with the flow and don't worry or care, it is the foreigners or upper class Panamanians that make a big deal about no electricity or water. I know living here 6 years the most we were out was 8 hours and that was the transformer blew out right beside my house. Two weeks ago where I used to live in the suburbs of Chicago they were out of electricity for 4 days!

Mary

Ok fair enough, but I heard that even in the town the electricity was down for several hours. A woman had to stop doing homework with her child.

I didn't realize what you were referring to as I said a few things in my post.

I don't think I was too deep into the forest. I even saw what looked to be nice houses obviously belonging to well to do people.

Everything else I mentioned was my opinion of the town, not the mountain area

Take care


Michelle

Do you know why Pangea is for sale (that you have a promotional link to)? How much do they want for it?

Originally Posted by sensualspirit

Ok fair enough, but I heard that even in the town the electricity was down for several hours. A woman had to stop doing homework with her child.

I didn't realize what you were referring to as I said a few things in my post.

I don't think I was too deep into the forest. I even saw what looked to be nice houses obviously belonging to well to do people.

Everything else I mentioned was my opinion of the town, not the mountain area

Take care


Michelle

Pangea...I know they want 395K for it as well as the 60K a year for a four year lease....El Valle...I personally like El Valle...I like the landscape and the climate...I can see how it is a nice place to retire for certain people and in my opinion it is still pretty close to the city...true there is not much to do socially but the homes are nice...For someone who is content with a couple of dogs and pool it is perfect