Thread: FBAR form. I might be in some trouble.

I started a bank account last year and didn't think much of it. I filed my taxes and didn't think of declaring the nominal amount of interest I earned on this account. Anyway, I just found out about the FBAR requirement which is a form that must be filled out to let the government know how much money we have in our bank accounts. The deadline is Jun 30. Anyway, not filing on time is not good and carry's with it high panalty's. And, the form must be submitted on or before Jun 30, not post marked before this date. I can't get it to them on time. Can anyone think of a way to resolve this issue? I have no excuse except that I just didn't know about it. But, the penalty's are severe. Any suggestion would be appreciated. There are many Xpats who don't know about this requirement or the deadline.

Originally Posted by Pollerkeeper

I started a bank account last year and didn't think much of it. I filed my taxes and didn't think of declaring the nominal amount of interest I earned on this account. Anyway, I just found out about the FBAR requirement which is a form that must be filled out to let the government know how much money we have in our bank accounts. The deadline is Jun 30. Anyway, not filing on time is not good and carry's with it high panalty's. And, the form must be submitted on or before Jun 30, not post marked before this date. I can't get it to them on time. Can anyone think of a way to resolve this issue? I have no excuse except that I just didn't know about it. But, the penalty's are severe. Any suggestion would be appreciated. There are many Xpats who don't know about this requirement or the deadline.

If less than $10,000, no need to report.

If more than $10,000, you have until June 30 to file. So you're not late!!

Regardless, better to be late and attach an explanation than ignore if it's your desire to comply. Again, don't confuse me stating the rules with an opinion whether you should report. I think most know of the requirement and choose to ignore it. Doesn't matter to me what folks do. I don't think the interest amounts to enough that they should worry about it.

It is my desire to comply. I have accounts drawing 1% interest. I neglected to report the interest when I did my taxes also. I am going to go ahead and see if my Tax Preparer can help me with this in the morning. It doesn't pay to be ignorant. But, I was on this matter. I am frankly very worried. My view is this. The IRS has opened up field offices in Panama City I have read. The US is in dire need of tax revenue right now. They don't tell us everything but the writing is on the wall. They are going to enforce this FBAR requirement and the penalties can be harsh. I don't expect empathy from the IRS even though I legitimately did not know the rules. We are entering a "new world". All I can do is fix this issue and hope for the best. When I called my accountant today the secretary told me that clients are coming in now that have not paid taxes for years. Americans are paying huge penalties for having overseas bank accounts and not reporting them now. Things are getting ugly and they are not going to get any better. I am worried and stressed out because of this but I can only blame myself for not staying informed. Good luck to all of you that don't file this form.

You could always denounce your citizenship.

I am sure when you are done paying your tax preparer and taxes you'll be earning a handsome negative 5 % interest on the money. Your tax preparer is probably paying taxes on his income too.

The likelihood of them finding out is probably 1 in 10,000 so base your decision on that instead. Never destroy your entire income source on paper work......

Or be an American and not follow stupid fkn rules by the book like a pu$$y.

Remember that one of the founding events was a tax protest on a breakfast beverage (tea).

Originally Posted by adamruns

You could always denounce your citizenship.

A web site I read this afternoon took a poll of 200 Xpats. 62% of them said that they were unaware of the FBAR requirement. Sounds pretty high but believable. In light of that the IRS can go fishing and be pretty successful doing audits on us Xpats. I believe that the IRS is already aware of this and making its plans. Just a hunch. And since the penalties are very high for non-compliance the payoff would probably be very good for them. I certainly don't know what the odds are of being audited.

poller if the IRS has opened up field offices in Panama City do you not have until june 30 th to walk into one and hand in the papers you are talking about .

Originally Posted by Pollerkeeper

A web site I read this afternoon took a poll of 200 Xpats. 62% of them said that they were unaware of the FBAR requirement. Sounds pretty high but believable. In light of that the IRS can go fishing and be pretty successful doing audits on us Xpats. I believe that the IRS is already aware of this and making its plans. Just a hunch. And since the penalties are very high for non-compliance the payoff would probably be very good for them.

Yeah, and the IRS is desparate to show something justifying Obama's refusal to sign the Panama Free Trade Agreement as well as get the public believing it's all those expats and their unreported accounts that are the cause of all the problems! LOL

Regardless, folks definitely need to seriously consider moving their assets from the U.S. before they no longer have the choice to do so and (at the risk of sounding like an extremist) before their assets are taken from them. Again, just ask yourself: "Do I think I will have a greater or more limited ability to do so in the future?"

You could scan and email the form to someone in the US and have them send it overnight mail. While I suspect that the IRS has more important things to pursue than being a few days late, you are absolutely right about them being a revenue generating machine and not being concerned with reasonable, fair or even legal.

Or you can try to be a sovereign man instead of a little girl.

You have to be the one who decides on the exception.

If they request you do something where the time, record keeping and expenses exceed the income you can simply choose to ignore it.

Move your money to a foundation if you have such an emotional attachment to the IRS.

For sure the possibility of getting audited in the future will go up now that you have volunteered yourself in the witch hunt.

It's generally a stupid idea to give money to someone who cannot balance a budget or even show an occasional profit.

Originally Posted by jonr

You could scan and email the form to someone in the US and have them send it overnight mail. While I suspect that the IRS has more important things to pursue than being a few days late, you are absolutely right about them being a revenue generating machine and not being concerned with reasonable, fair or even legal.

Ed, you have expressed your personal opinion about this matter in a previous post. If following IRS rules is being a little girl than so be it. I personally believe you are an idiot. Now, maybe you have a strategy for hiding assets from the tentacles of the IRS. That is fine. I don't. My opinion is that is not worth what I can gain by not complying. The penalties are huge in nature, and once the deadline is missed there is no extensions. The penalty's are criminal in nature. A little guy like myself could not stand to pay the penalties for not complying. Maybe it is no problem for you. Because you are obviously not a "pussy". We don't know what the future will bring us. The US could make it a priority to audit Xpats and figure out a way to make it happen, and force us to be transparent. I believe that the US is desperate for money and as time goes on it will manifest itself in surprising ways. But, it won't bother you I am sure Ed. You are a man.

Actually it is my preference that guys like you pay into the system so the government can pay guys like me who will ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY leech from the system. I just hoped you weren't one of them.

Make sure you get bank statements from your Panamanian banks for the full year and maintain the records for at least 4 years from the filing date to be safe.

Here is a Neat Receipt scanner for $180 (plus import and shipping to Panama about $250): http://www.amazon.com/NeatReceipts-P.../dp/B000WDU4VU

Hope that helps in your documentation work.

Maybe you should wipe your ass with the passport now that the admin work to run the monster exceeds the production output and the government scares you shitless.

Turns out you need to keep account records for 5 years per the IRS - probably from your filing date so make it 6.5 years roughly (if counting the time the records existed as well).

By my experience, giving the IRS any information is a mistake, if they don't already have it. When you volunteer information they will fine you. If you give them nothing, they will never know.

Just doing some basic statistical analys easily shows that you are AT A MUCH HIGHER risk from a reporting mistake than from not reporting at all.

I assume you know this, but here is goes:

Only the US and Libya tax based on citizenship (at least on Earth) and not residency. The US is currently bombing Libya so I doubt they are currently collecting from their non-residents.

If they want to audit Xpats maybe they should also be forced to follow the Hague convention on service of process don't you think (yes, they have signed it)?

Transparent what? You do realize that when 90 % of the population are just pushing paper work around, the country implodes and ceases to exist.

Hopefully you will forget the FBAR next year due to an illness and they will fine you 12,000 dollars for each account you don't report. Then you can hire a tax law firm and get "due process" for 3 years while you fight to get the money back.

Originally Posted by Pollerkeeper

The US could make it a priority to audit Xpats and figure out a way to make it happen, and force us to be transparent.

With the ever changing tax code and reporting requirements even tax professional rarely agree on what the IRS really wants. Hell the IRS will also give you different answers depending on who you speak with. Poller you are wise to try and be compliant if possible. Your interest income is negligible compared to the grief the IRS could levy upon you. Countless millions detest the IRS and their heavy handed ways so a little anxiety does not make you a pussy. I no longer believe Panama bank account info for foriegners will remain private. I agree with your assertion that a more desperate federal govt will look at undisclosed offshore accounts as a source of revenue via fines. There are more complex structures where assets can be placed other than a general bank account that would afford more privacy. The question becomes does an individual have enough assets to warrant that type of protection? These folks have some clever ideas. I won't disclose if I have used them but they are worth looking into.
Asset Protection Attorneys : Lodmell & Lodmell

I am glad I complied so I don't have to worry about it anymore. I don't care what you do Ed. I do appreciate your concerns though. I do agree that the IRS is a bunch of heavy handed jerks when it comes to collecting taxes. I do agree that the US is fiscally irresponsible with the way our taxes are used. I also agree that the US is in trouble financially and that our dollar could collapse in value and lose it's reserve currency status. That makes the US desperate. And, the IRS is it's right arm. The IRS will use its powers to strong arm money if it comes right down to it or is given half a chance. Not to respect the IRS is stupid. Hence my opinion about you. If I need to collect bank account records I guess I need to do that.

It's a great system to have poor people waste 5 times the income on understanding and complying with the filing requirements for a tax code that has been impossible to understand for decades. After all they don't pay much taxes anyway so fk em. Maybe they are not pussies, they are UNCONSTITUTIONAL and should be forced to leave the country for being deranged.

Here is my 3 step process in relation to the IRS:

1. Unreasonable state fine of $300 demanded, pay, be inventive next year and deduct 6-10,000 from gross income.
2. 10 % fine imposed for depositing incorrectly (on time and right amount, but not using EFTPS). Same fine two quarters in a row since first fine was sent 3 months late. Pay self offshore in the future.
3. Government allowed frivolous lawsuit to proceed with lawyer fees exceeding 100 times damage claimed. Offshore entire business and leave country.
4. Get Paraguayan passport and wipe ass with left over paper.

I am willing to help anyone for free in obtaining complete tax freedom. I will fine those apes 1000 times what they fined me in the end. You get the citizens you deserve.

Originally Posted by fleeted

Your interest income is negligible compared to the grief the IRS could levy upon you. Countless millions detest the IRS and their heavy handed ways so a little anxiety does not make you a pussy.

Incorrect. Now you HAVE TO worry about it for another 5-6 years, I don't. It's not a one time deal this - they want you to move the money to the US.

Originally Posted by Pollerkeeper

I am glad I complied so I don't have to worry about it anymore.

Originally Posted by EdBowers

Here is my 3 step process in relation to the IRS:

1. Unreasonable state fine of $300 demanded, pay, be inventive next year and deduct 6-10,000 from gross income.
2. 10 % fine imposed for depositing incorrectly (on time and right amount, but not using EFTPS). Same fine two quarters in a row since first fine was sent 3 months late. Pay self offshore in the future.
3. Government allowed frivolous lawsuit to proceed with lawyer fees exceeding 100 times damage claimed. Offshore entire business and leave country.
4. Get Paraguayan passport and wipe ass with left over paper.

Great stuff!

That's why we have credit unions - they are not banks in Panama and pay a higher interest. Hence you do not have a bank account, you are simply a member of a credit union - an private club and entity which is undefined by US tax code (although they claim it is valid world wide).

Originally Posted by fleeted

I no longer believe Panama bank account info for foriegners will remain private.

Originally Posted by EdBowers

It's a great system to have poor people waste 5 times the income on understanding and complying with the filing requirements for a tax code that has been impossible to understand for decades. After all they don't pay much taxes anyway so fk em. Maybe they are not pussies, they are UNCONSTITUTIONAL and should be forced to leave the country for being deranged.

Here is my 3 step process in relation to the IRS:

1. Unreasonable state fine of $300 demanded, pay, be inventive next year and deduct 6-10,000 from gross income.
2. 10 % fine imposed for depositing incorrectly (on time and right amount, but not using EFTPS). Same fine two quarters in a row since first fine was sent 3 months late. Pay self offshore in the future.
3. Government allowed frivolous lawsuit to proceed with lawyer fees exceeding 100 times damage claimed. Offshore entire business and leave country.
4. Get Paraguayan passport and wipe ass with left over paper.

I am willing to help anyone for free in obtaining complete tax freedom. I will fine those apes 1000 times what they fined me in the end. You get the citizens you deserve.

I salute anyone who is taking steps to protect their assets. I just don't think a panama bank account alone affords enough protection. Credit unions maybe a little better but the average pensioner with little money in a panama bank could be devasted with fines for not reporting. The jack booted thugs from the IRS have no problem freezing accounts and confiscating pension checks to get their pound of flesh. Those of us with more assets that have not taken steps are just foolish in my opinion. I think a second passport is a must nowadays. The banking system is the tool by which the govt tracks people and revenue, the more one can operate independently of the system the more freedom and privacy they will enjoy.

They could be devasted with fines FOR REPORTING, but hardly for not reporting.

FBAR Penalties Absurd, Unfair

"I have an eighty year old client who inherited several foreign bank accounts. She had no idea that she was required to file an annual information return reporting the existence of those accounts. When she became aware of her obligation to file, she hired our firm to file the delinquent FBARs. As a result of her voluntary, albeit late, compliance she was hit with multiple failure to file penalties totalling more than $120,000."

When it's all said and done they will collect 99.9 % of the money from people filling out the form incorrectly or in a non timely manner. The other 0.1 % of the money they collect will come from people how hide millions of assets illegally (it will not depend on the form).

The average pensioner in Panama takes a huge risk by starting this FBAR process with the IRS. If you don't keep your records for 6 years and remember to file for each account each year your pension is gone. If you don't file the FBAR form they first have to find accounts with more than 10,000 dollars in total which of course they never will (unless you are stupid enough to tell them).

Do you still think that good faith and honesty have some fkn value?

There is no razor blade in the Halloween apple. You can eat it. The kids can go out again. OK!!!

Originally Posted by fleeted

Credit unions maybe a little better but the average pensioner with little money in a panama bank could be devasted with fines for not reporting.

Imagine the guy who deos not report for ten years and then is discovered. The people who had Swiss bank accounts thought they were safe because Switzerland had the best reputation for privacy, These people are now screwed. A banker from Cayman Islands also rolled and gave up client names. How long before some corrupt Panama bank official rolls? The guy who needs his pension to live and has it levied by the IRS will be screwed. You and I won't have that problem because we are properly diversified, but the guy on a $1200 a month pension might be crushed one day. Filing the form and keeping the records are a pain in the ass I agree with you 100% but for some people that maybe their only option. How many pensioners wire money from the U.S. to their Panama account? What if the IRS decides to start tracing those wires? The IRS has it's tentacles everywhere and just because someone thinks they don't have enough money to be of interest to them they had better think twice. My father always said the IRS will spend $500 to collect 5 cents.

Yeah, they sure have a tenacles everywhere, especially in the accounts with 50 billion dollars (that's the same as the entire bank system here) managed by Madoff or the 7 billion managed by Stanford (and that's over more than a decade with multiple fraud complaints). The IRS does not know jack shit, they just have computers taking in electronic data and reading voluntary forms. When you file the form you get the burden of proof and give up your 5th amendment rights, when you don't you maintain this right. Even for the Swiss accounts they didn't touch anything below 1 million and I am sure they could have gone for the entire package. They won't be sniffing around pension funds from which taxes were already withheld at source. They will use everything you file and say against you with a reverse burden of proof on top.

Foriegn Banks have no incentive to open accounts from Americans. This article claims the U.S. govt hopes to retrieve 7 billion over 10 years from tax cheats. 7 billion? Are you kidding me? This Law is nothing about expanding power and control.
News Headlines

Originally Posted by fleeted

Foriegn Banks have no incentive to open accounts from Americans. This article claims the U.S. govt hopes to retrieve 7 billion over 10 years from tax cheats. 7 billion? Are you kidding me? This Law is nothing about expanding power and control.
News Headlines

It is possible to spread out your funds and keep balances under $50K in each bank. And it may be a safer bet to convert excess cash into hard assets preferably income producing. Most of the expats in Panama are not wealthy otherwise they probably would have chosen another place. Most of us come to Panama primarily because it's cheaper to live. South America would be a better bet if you can afford to live there.

$7B over 10 years is a spec of dust compared to what is spent on illegal wars that only benefit a handful of corporations and shareholders. Stop the wars and that's $7B recouped in a matter of months.

Originally Posted by Jake

It is possible to spread out your funds and keep balances under $50K in each bank. And it may be a safer bet to convert excess cash into hard assets preferably income producing. Most of the expats in Panama are not wealthy otherwise they probably would have chosen another place. Most of us come to Panama primarily because it's cheaper to live. South America would be a better bet if you can afford to live there.

$7B over 10 years is a spec of dust compared to what is spent on illegal wars that only benefit a handful of corporations and shareholders. Stop the wars and that's $7B recouped in a matter of months.

Foriegn bank accounts have to be reported regardless of balance. I agree 7 billion is a spec with the trillions added to the debt annually now. This is all about control of the population. The wealthy or independent minded amongst us could shrug off many regulations but now they control your money regardless of where you place it. This from the same people who think food stamps create jobs and are encouraging states to sign more people up. More and More people becoming dependent on the regime everyday. Obama Agriculture Secretary: Food Stamps Create Jobs | CNSnews.com
50 million families so far and growing. A great strategy, if you can get people dependent on the govt to eat, anyone who tries to end the free lunch will be removed from office and replaced with a progressive Socialist. I suggest everyone invest in honest money to protect against the coming inflationary holocaust.

Originally Posted by fleeted

Foriegn bank accounts have to be reported regardless of balance.

fleeted: Regarding the question WHO MUST FILE: "Any United States person who has a financial interest in or signature authority or other authority over any financial account in a foreign country, if the aggregate value of these accounts exceeds $10,000 at any time during the calendar year."

Originally Posted by BalaBeacher

fleeted: Regarding the question WHO MUST FILE: "Any United States person who has a financial interest in or signature authority or other authority over any financial account in a foreign country, if the aggregate value of these accounts exceeds $10,000 at any time during the calendar year."

Thanks for the info!! That shoots down any attempt to spread money around in multiple accounts. Consider we are talking about after tax dollars that the govt wants control over. Now I understand why people set up foriegn shell corporations with straw men to open accounts. Privacy is in short supply nowadays!!