Thread: Panama, Malaysia or.......................????????

I have recently retired at 52 after working 33+ years in the UK and 3 years overseas in the UAE. For a LOOOONG time I have fancied the idea of living abroad and often felt that France would be my end point. I like the language, food, country and the people so it had quite a few ticks in boxes. Of late though a few things have changed. Firstly there is the 'inactifs' issue (the need to have private medical cover now if below state retirement age), then there is the position with the Euro and also on the personal front, I now have some different considerations following life in the UAE. The France specific issues are not show-stoppers but need careful consideration I think.

My desire to relocate is not so much on disillusionment with the UK (albeit there is a lot I'm not happy with - but similar issues affect everywhere), more a case of I'm not SURE it offers me what I want out of life now. Previously I thought ALL I wanted was a sunnier clime, good food, wine and good heritage and culture. I'm not sure though of those ingredients alone are enough now. To fulfil them, France would be ideal, albeit I think somewhere south of the Loire would be needed to benefit from better weather. So I considered Aquitane, Languedoc and Provence. All still viable of course. I also considered Spain and Italy, but I'm just not sure there is as much there as I'd like given that I don't think it's just warmer that I'm after.

Much about the UAE I did not enjoy. Stifling heat for 7 months of the year (50+ often and very high humidity), the cost of most things there (except tat, some food and spices), a somewhat restrictive life style and, at times, the squalor in the backstreets which is far removed from the shots of the beach and its promenade (the Corniche) that the brochures and magazines are full of!!! I did however like a few things there, some of which I miss here. The weather during the winter months, the fact that it was sunny a lot, being able to nip to a very well equipped gym and health complex on foot and being able to pop out for a drink or meal at any number of multi-cultural restaurants or bars in a variety of settings (inside/outside/beach etc etc). May all sound a bit odd but thinking about it now I'm not sure that even France offers ALL of those in the same way at least, unless it is for mega bucks near St Tropez, and even then, there is not such a great variety.

This got me contemplating other locations as potential options with a significant determining factor being the viability of it all, thus ruling out, by and large, places like Canada, USA, Australia etc etc as I have no plans to work (albeit I might if the right thing came along but then of course it's a different ball game and visa requirements vary considerably) and retirement visa options are limited or non-existant. Like I say, France, Spain and Italy are still options but I am now more actively considering:

1) Malaysia: Benefits of the MM2H visa, variety of food and cultures, cosmopolitan, good standard of living and lower costs. Cons include: concerns over area stability, yet to research services and availability/standard, more tropical climate, cost of cars etc. Considering Penang.

2) Phillipines: Similar option but more Phillipine from what I gather than the greater diversity of Malaysia.

3) South Africa: Good visa option. Real concerns over high crime/risk and the numbers of SAs who leave (for the same reasons).

4) Thailand: Again OK but it seems less advanced/sophisticated that 1 & 2 above and there are more concerns over stability.

5) Panama: Only recently on the radar so am just researching it.

There are also more general considerations which apply to all, some which are easier to deal with dependant on how close the point of relocation is. They include:

a) Stay there for ever or return as old age creeps in

b) Sell up the house here or keep a base either by keeping it and renting out, investing in a smaller foothold or whatever.

c) Ship all the belongings out, put them in storage or sell off?

d) Medical and other services in other countries.


So, sorry for the long rambling posts. I have been and will be reading as many threads as I can here but any pointers with regard to things I may have missed or other things to consider greatly appreciated. At the moment Malaysia is I think in number one spot, probably with France, Spain and Italy as a second above the Phillipines etc. But Panama looks like it could go into equal first if things look good on a visit.

You mite want to add Ecuador and Sri Lanka to your "potential" list...both have great Retirement visa programs and Tax and investment incentives...both also have many options to live at altitude and enjoy a somewhat cooler climate, worth having a look at anyway.

I have only been to Panama and Thailand of your list, but would choose Thailand any day over Panama! Way nicer vibe, more beautiful country, and wayyyy cheaper! + i loveeee thai food!

There are options out there for foreign nationals in the world. I was talking with somebody that has been to Quito, Ecuador recently and the person mentioned how dangerous it is now. Thailand is very politically unstable at this time and it is on the other side of the globe.

I agree with Woohoo about Quito,way to dangerous. I don't care for the Socialist countries like Ecuador or Bolivia or Nicaragua. I guess I can lump the ole USA in with the rest of the Socialist countries now.

Yep, I spent just a month in Thaliand way back. Nice enough and excellent food, nice beaches and climate too. Never figured I'd want to live there though. It was on the list simply because it's possible and it's Thailand. Same with Philippines.

Malasyia different prospect and it will be a close run thing. Nice people in Malaysia to so I hear (also have friends with a place there). As to the other side of the world, well not such an issue for me. Malaysia one way, Panama the other (albeit not quite so far).

Ecuador, Bolivia and Nicaragua will be unlikely to make the short list I think.

Originally Posted by fleeted

I agree with Woohoo about Quito,way to dangerous. I don't care for the Socialist countries like Ecuador or Bolivia or Nicaragua. I guess I can lump the ole USA in with the rest of the Socialist countries now.

The Socialist countrys tend to look after there citizens by subsidising large parts of the economy, cheap fuel (gas), public transport, medical care, rice and other basics of life....can make for a lower cost retirement...i know Sri Lanka runs 15 price subsidy programs.

Why limit yourself to one country? Being retired in Panama allows you to fly out at 20-25 % discount to other countries.

Personally I would consider Panama for Dec-->May and a ski resort in South America for June-Oct.

Originally Posted by So_Cynical

The Socialist countrys tend to look after there citizens by subsidising large parts of the economy, cheap fuel (gas), public transport, medical care, rice and other basics of life....can make for a lower cost retirement...i know Sri Lanka runs 15 price subsidy programs.

socialism is really good until you run out of the other guys money . then the wheels, fall off the wagon

Originally Posted by nakedguydb

socialism is really good until you run out of the other guys money . then the wheels, fall off the wagon

Running out of money is never good, regardless where or who's :P

I enjoyed Thailand, but I dont think I could see myself living there.

Another factor for me was 'ease of travel to see family & check in on R/E investments'... as I am a Florida guy, living in Thailand would mean a 23 hour (or more) trip to get home.

That said, I could maybe see Chang Mai... the political instability in the capital really doesnt reach there, its more sceneic and beautiful, and dirt cheap.

Originally Posted by CerebralPrimate

That said, I could maybe see Chang Mai... the political instability in the capital really doesnt reach there, its more sceneic and beautiful, and dirt cheap.

Its the crazy visa conditions that i don't like about Thailand...a retirement visa that requires you to report to immigration every 90 days for the rest of your life, its like being on parole in paradise.

^Good point. I never really looked into it as its just too far from home... GREAT place to visit, just not one I seriously considered retiring to.

Yep the visa situation in Thailand is a drag, and it's just to unstable too. At the moment for me I think Panama and Malaysia are looking favourite at the moment, maybe Malaysia just has the edge, but possibly because I have researched there more and just started looking at Panama.

I will be visiting both in April... my second trip to BKK, my first to Panama. I will try to remember to come back to this thread and post my thoughts on each.

Pity you can't hit Malaysia while you are out Thailand way too. Good option for permanent location IMO. Only two on the list for me at moment, Panama and there.

At some level this is a personal preference. Many countries have some good things about them, but very few countries have many good things. If you speak the language or have contacts somewhere perhaps that tilts the scale. If you're older than 50, there are many more "retirement" visas. If you are younger, you'll most likely need an economic investment. If you need to work, that could change things as well.

If you like France, and want good healthcare, you may want to consider Malta. This would be easy for someone like you and you can just rent a place there.

I ruled out Thailand for its political instability. However, Marc Faber does live in Chang Mai. I don't think you can own property there either.

Singapore - basically the same issue. I don't want to live in a place where I go to jail for chewing gum.

Hong Kong - would be an option if I wanted to work. However its very expensive, so most people would have to work living there.

Malaysia and Philippines - may be good options especially if you like the big cities. However, I ruled them out due to a large Muslim population. This may not be a concern for you, but it is a security and stability concern in my book.

The rest of Europe, Japan, South Korea, and the US are collapsing. They are also energy dependent. South Korea and Japan will see devastation when peak oil becomes a reality.

I wouldn't even consider Africa, unless you want to raise your own army.

If you like the outdoors and have more than 2 million, New Zealand may be a good option. Nothing is a good investment or business there though, so you'll be mostly on your own.

Australia is a mix. Real estate is now very expensive and they are socialist. But they have lots of resources. Cost of living isn't cheap, so you either need a lot of money or be willing to work.

Ecuador is socialist, dangerous and unstable.
Argentina would be great, except their government ruins everything.
Uruguay was a top pick until they decided to tax global income. Now its suspect.
Chile taxes are way too high and complex.

Brazil is a mix. Almost everything is great about it with the exception of high crime and anti-gringo culture. Rio is a bit scary in that sense. Beautiful beaches and lots of resources though. If you speak the language, you could fit right in and it could be a good option.

Costa Rica, requires you to stay half the year, is more expensive, more rural and spread out in San Jose. Less infrastructure, but still a decent option.

And then you have Panama.

Thailand may be political unstable, but so far it hasnt had much effect on civilians or tourists. You can own property in thailand, but only condo's. They have the 49% investment rule. A foreigner can only own 49% of real estate or a business. The 51% needs to be in Thai hands. With condo's they can sell them to foreigners, as long as they make sure that no more then 49% of the buildings appartments are in foreigners hands. So yes, definetely not ideal for investments. Many Asian countries have these problems. I believe Philipines also, Malaysia i am not sure of, but also quite likely. Actually i believe i have read once HK is the only Asian country where foreigners can own 100%.

What you say about Africa doesn't make much sense though. Africa is a continent, not a country. I have been in Ghana in west-africa a few times, and i dare to say it is safer on the streets at night there then in the Netherlands, or any other country i have been in. It surely is wayyyy safer then Panama. And easily 10 times cheaper(minumum wage around 30-40 euro's a month). However, there are way less facilities and luxury of course. Big plus there is that everybody speaks English and i also believe there's no income tax!

Malaysia not a problem to buy property if you meet the criteria. Largely agree with Skynet on most of the other countries. The situation in Malaysia does not bother me though, at least for now. Malaysia and Panama still top of list for me, at the moment Malaysia just has the edge.

Originally Posted by skynet21

At some level this is a personal preference. Many countries have some good things about them, but very few countries have many good things.

And then you have Panama.

I think you have made your personal preference clear...just for the record the Muslim population of the Philippines is less than 10% so i hardly think that could be considered a security issue in anyway, and how could Equador seriously be considerd to be "dangerous and unstable" could it be just because its socialist? Cuba has been communist/socalist for what 40years is Cuba dangerous and unstable? or Vietnam or China or France?

Originally Posted by janl

With condo's they can sell them to foreigners, as long as they make sure that no more then 49% of the buildings appartments are in foreigners hands. So yes, definetely not ideal for investments. Many Asian countries have these problems. I believe Philipines also, Malaysia i am not sure of, but also quite likely.

Malaysia has one of the best retirement visas in the world...MM2H visa holders can own land in Malaysia 100% outright with almost no restrictions, own as many houses as you want..they don't care, however there is a minimum spend that just recently was revised up, each state sets there own MM2H spend requirements.

Originally Posted by janl

What you say about Africa doesn't make much sense though. Africa is a continent, not a country. I have been in Ghana in west-africa a few times, and i dare to say it is safer on the streets at night there then in the Netherlands, or any other country i have been in. It surely is wayyyy safer then Panama.

I've been to Ghana twice over the last decade and a half...there is a handful of western guys living there enjoying the golden years of life, Ghana is very safe, everyone speaks English, the Beers are wonderful and cheap, there is no gun culture and White dudes (Obruni's) are treated with much respect...and the women are smokin hot!

Also in most African country's there are very generous foreign investment incentives available often requiring very small investments...costs almost nothing to get a permanent visa.

Might check out Ghana too then

Originally Posted by Templar

Might check out Ghana too then

You wont be disappointed! Not for everybody to live there, but definetely you will enjoy a trip down there! Also, its only about 6 hours direct with BA!

Did you look into Malta? It's probably the only European country that I'd consider, but there is no work or business there so its strictly to retire.

If you're looking to invest in real estate this is a great resource. Country investment ratings. | Global Property Guide
Panama is at the top of the list for real estate investment returns, but there are other places to consider.

Doug Casey has also written many articles about these issues. He chose New Zealand but found it too remote and expensive so he's moved to Argentina. He admits the government has wrecked the country but believes they can do no worse. I think his reasoning is totally flawed. There has never been a situation so bad that the government can't make it worse.

As for the Philipines, if this doesn't concern you, then it may be a good fit for you. I'll take my chances elsewhere.
AFP: Philippines links Muslim militants to bus carnage

Indeed. MILF takes on an entirely new concept too

Originally Posted by skynet21

D

If you're looking to invest in real estate this is a great resource. Country investment ratings. | Global Property Guide
Panama is at the top of the list for real estate investment returns, but there are other places to consider.

Are you serious? Half the appartments in the city is empty :S

Originally Posted by skynet21

As for the Philipines, if this doesn't concern you, then it may be a good fit for you. I'll take my chances elsewhere.
AFP: Philippines links Muslim militants to bus carnage

Every country has its problems. Read Panama police may now legally kidnap and sell you to FARC | Bananama Republic and the comments under it. Sounds just as scary doesnt it?

I have lived in Thailand for over 10 years after living in Singapore for 5 years. I come from the California and was looking for adventure after college. Last week I was in Malaysia and took a train in from the airport in KL and started talking with a Malaysian Chinese guy and I asked him about the " Malaysia my second home" deal that they have to lure retirees there. It all sounds good and looks good on paper, but he told me that you actually can't own any decent beachfront land and in fact can only own a "townhome" which is a condo.

As far as Thailand goes, it's a great place to live if you don't ever intend on owning any land and just want to be a renter. Depending on where you are here, it can be really cheap, or if you are in Phuket as I am, as much if not more than the US for a good quality of life. There are however plenty of retirees in the Northern part of Thailand that get by very well on less than 2K per month.

I've actually been looking for a Spanish speaking country that English is widely understood and also is tropical so I can show my Thai wife and daughter another part of the world and how others live, besides Thailand and the US. The grass is always greener I guess, but from what I've seen, all my friends that have visited everywhere in Central America, South America, the South Pacific etc., all seem to think Thailand is the best place to live. Granted these are mostly males .

Originally Posted by HKT

I have lived in Thailand for over 10 years after living in Singapore for 5 years. I come from the California and was looking for adventure after college. Last week I was in Malaysia and took a train in from the airport in KL and started talking with a Malaysian Chinese guy and I asked him about the " Malaysia my second home" deal that they have to lure retirees there. It all sounds good and looks good on paper, but he told me that you actually can't own any decent beachfront land and in fact can only own a "townhome" which is a condo.

Wrong...MM2H allows visa holders to own almost any type of real estate..this is an absolute fact and not in any dispute.

Malaysia My Second Home

Originally Posted by HKT

As far as Thailand goes, it's a great place to live if you don't ever intend on owning any land and just want to be a renter. Depending on where you are here, it can be really cheap, or if you are in Phuket as I am, as much if not more than the US for a good quality of life. There are however plenty of retirees in the Northern part of Thailand that get by very well on less than 2K per month.

Apparently there are 16000 western retires living in Chiang Mai...must get very busy at the local immigration office since all retires need to report there every 90 days.