Thread: Land of Opportunity? Naive Gringos?

Panama is a great place to live if you are a retiree, independently wealthy, or a surfer that sells hemp bracelets in Venao....but what about for the rest of us? There are a slew of foreigners in between the ages of 20 and 60 that come to this country in search of making a living. Is it a feasible goal? Or will it end up being a black hole which sucks up all of your saved up cash? "Tom" has many ideas for this country because he has vacationed here and has seen how much room for improvement there is. He has noticed the lack of products and services that exist is his native country and believes that he can use what he knows, here. He has heard how cheap it is to live here and loves the idea of year round fun in the sun. Can Tom become the perma-vacationer he so desires and live happily ever after in Panama? Are the obstacles too great? Do the benefits outweigh the efforts? Will Panama open up it's doors and arms and accept that there is room for change? Or will he be sent home defeated, broke, and cursing this country and it's inhabitants? Are we trying to change something that will not change in our lifetime? One thing is for sure...we are at their mercy. But, not to fear, there are still those few James Bond foreigners that can play this system like Pinocchio. People that work the system instead of the system working them. Are you one?

To give you an idea:

1. 1-2 weeks of full-time work and frustration to open a bank account. If doing advanced (international) banking/business expect 3-6 months of pure hell.
2. Importing your car - took me 14 months.
3. Renewing your car plate - 2 complete days wasted in various lines (insurance, "smog", payment, temp permits, final trip for plate 3 months later).
4. Speeding - cops play/lecture you for 30 mins before accepting a bribe.
5. Cable-internet. Constant hunt for specials. Bills incorrect if not on top of things (expect 2-4 office visits per year).
6. Credit cards - every 3rd bill has had some new bank charge or similar.
7. Contract is everything here - there is no honor or "expected standards". If warm water (pressure) is not mentioned, then no warm water it is.

First 6 months I either wanted to kill the person in front of me or share a beer, if you know what I mean.

Best wishes, Ed
http://www.panama-bank-guide.com/

And now, Ed?

Hi!

Panama is not for everyone!! Yes we have been very frustrated on a lot of things, but you live with it or you leave. I have been here permanently for 4+ years and LOVE it. My husband hasn't been back to the states in 3-1/2 years and has no plan to go back to visit. His comment is if someone wants to see him they need to come here. With webcams and SKYPE he can talk and see the kids whenever he wants to.

"Tom has all these ideas for Panama while he was vacationing" - give me a break, being on vacation and living here is another story all together!

Most of the stuff Ed said is true--especially wanting to kill someone or have a beer (LOL)--that is why I have a BeerMeister at the house!
Don't bring a car I went through 18 months and 6 trips between PC and Penonomee to get our car registered--now it is a peice of cake to get my plates in Penonomee.

Banking is really hard to get started here. You need 2 letters from your bank in the States/Canada and 2 letters of reference from people living in PANAMA. They are really strict because of money laundering and the IRS opening an office in PC. Some banks won't accept new clients from the U.S.

Starting a business requires you hire minimum of 3 Panamanians full-time, but that could have changed since the last time someone was trying to start a business. You will not be able to work in PANAMA unless you are sponsored by a foreign company and have all the paperwork. Panama is very protective of their people. If for some reason you find a job and are illegally working you can be deported and not allowed back into the country--which with computers at immigration they can easily refuse you entry!

I have seen foreigners come here in the interior and complain and try to change things to U.S./Canadian ways. These people are basically crazy. I know of one guy bought a house next door to a cantina and was throwing fits on weekends or holidays because the bar was going 24 hours. Sorry, that is the Panamanian culture!!

Also if you come down here you will need some type of visa. A tourist visa is only good for 90 days. I know a lot of people living down here on a tourist visa, so every 90 days they are going to Costa Rica for a couple of days and then returning to Panama. That is going to cost money.

Martinelli is really cracking down on a lot of things in this country which is great for the Panamanians after a lot of years of corruption!

Yes it is cheap living down here. We live on my husband's social security of $1400/month, but then we own our home and cars.

Mary
www.whyypanama.com

Well, I like to think positive. Rich is relative. Given how inefficient people are in this country they will be dirt poor forever.

Another one of my "favorites" is when two farmers have bumped into each other on the Panamerican Highway and caused 5 dollars worth of damage to a light bulb.

If on a Sunday afternoon about 20,000 people will be more than 1 hour late to town and 30,000 dollars burnt of fuel so that a police officer can write up a correct report (you are not allowed/supposed to move your car after fender bender in Panama). Most administrative decisions in Panama seem to be made by brain-dead over-emotional babies.....

If I wasn't working from home I would have left this country many years ago.

Originally Posted by Lyla

And now, Ed?

Trying to buy a used car off of Encuentra24 or Craigslist was just a nightmare. I wasted 5 full days responding to adds that were completely bogus. They would say 80,000 km, I would get there and the car would have 200,000 km. It would say 2004, it would be 1996. One time I met a guy in PTY and he had to make a couple of calls, and whoosh it would appear from around the corner, pretty sketchy, with the ignition popped out and the seats slashed....leasing a car turned out not to be an option as it would have cost the same to buy it. I ended up going to Ricardo Perez in Chitre. They said that they had the car I was looking for in PTY on their huge used lot in Albrook. This turned out to be a bait and switch move. They had 7 similar models to what I was looking at. These models were all the same year, with all the same engines. They had different mileage and different features. ALL THE SAME PRICE!!! So I had to personally inspect all of them and make a decision. What a way to shop! The salesman acted like it was a huge inconvenience that I wanted to get inside and look at all the cars. I offered him $1,000 less than the sticker price. He wouldn't except it, so I walked. I slept it off at a hotel, because I was so infuriated that I couldn't bargain with this guy, and the next day decided to just bit the bullet and pay the guy what he wanted. My guess is that he didn't work for a commission. As far as insurance goes you can pay as little as $150 dollars up to roughly $700 depending on how much coverage you want. Paying more will get you more monetary coverage. There is a great place on Via Transistmica that will do a full inspection on your car for about 15 bucks. This is the Firestone of PTY, and I would suggest bringing a used car there before you buy it.


Opening a bank account definitely took 5 or 6 trips to the bank. For me, 1 letter of good standing faxed from the bank in the US, and two letters of recommendation from 2 different Panamanians were needed (typed EXACTLY the way the bank wanted them...this took a couple of trips). For my corporation, I needed a lawyer and two Panamanians to sit down with me at the bank and sign all of the paperwork (My "president and secretary") hmm wonder where they are now? After all that was done, I haven't needed any help from the 5 Panamanians as the bank knows me by my corporate name and my face. It is nice not having to pay $3.00 every time I hit the ATM, plus it seems that everywhere here accepts checks. They love checks!

I pay $81 dollars a month for CableOnda to have cable and internet. Its working out pretty well except when it rains. My life is doomed when I hear thunder. I can expect to lose power first, and then internet. I have a battery backup for the computer but it will not last me as long as I would like. When I am doing something important and this happens, I can expect to have something in the house being replaced the next day due to anger. Everybody in my neighborhood doesn't seem to care when we lose power, water, or internet. I guess it has always been a part of their lives.

My experience with contracts with Panamanians is that they can be used as a security measure, and a scare tactic, but are truly difficult to enforce as a foreigner. Yes, always put what you are doing in writing, but still, remember, you are in Panama. Panamanians can stall and stall and stall, so with whatever you do, make sure you can afford to lose what you are putting in. Make sure what you are doing makes you happy first, and don't expect to get the same results out of contracts as you would in your country. If somebody actually honors a contract, you go and have beer with them and dance in the rain.






More Panama "favorites"

Clearly being next in line only to be cut by two people and the employees don't take notice.

Insisting that the jukebox be played at the highest level possible even if its distorted. And make sure you and your buddies sit right next to the thing so that conversation is near impossible.

Driving around with a "For Sale" sign on you car...juuust in case.

The Golden rule here...$5 dollars today, is better than $10 tomorrow. Two pieces of pie, one is chocolate, the other is lime....they want the lime, but the chocolate is bigger, so they go for the chocolate. It is about quantity, not quality.

Not recognizing the value of doing something right the first time.

Lack of awareness in the street. They will cross without looking, or stop right in front of you while walking on the sidewalk causing you to basically jump around them.

Wrapping the hat in a plastic bag when it rains. Tells you the hat isn't just a fashion statement.

Calling you and hanging up after one ring forcing you to call them back.


Who's got more to add to the list???

That is so true about the phone calls, I knew a guy, he talk like he is a business man and knows someone in every office. The guy would call me and my phone would ring once, I called back one time. He can't spend 10 cents on a phone call to me. Cheap bastard.

Panama has truly been an experience. I am happy I moved out of the city, holy crap it was expensive. Now I was back in Florida for the past 5 weeks and I would rather not return. Everybody I know is scared of the economy, loosing their job, etc. In the time back I know of 4 people that got laid off from the company I used to work for. I also know a real estate agent that used to make 6 figures now living with mom and dad. Another thing was the price of food. A lousy mango is $1 and a pineapple is $4-$5 per. I can raid a neighbors mango tree and take all I can carry for $1.

Thanks everyone for your insights, some are quite funny, although I can surely appreciate a sense of frustration as related. We've just been traveling around in Panama now for about 1-1/2 months. I think the only way to really make a decision about living here, because of all the variables, would be to rent for at least 6 months, spanning wet and dry seasons, in the area you think you might be interested in. I don't know how anyone can even possibly make a decision to pull up their whole life and relocate without doing that. However, I notice from the many forums follow that people appear to be doing it all the time. I guess I'm just very cautious. My biggest fear is becoming a wanderer looking for a place to call home...because I can't decide...lol Its always the things you don't think of that will probably drive you crazy so these forums are so great to get the scoop. Thanks again!

I won't repeat what others have said (some hilarious things). But I have noticed that the emotional maturity these people is around 12-13. I can see myself become disillusioned with this place.

Emotional maturity of 'which' people...lol

Hey Lyla, if you are up for new experiences and you are good with change you will find a place to your liking. Decide wether you want mountains or near the beach and try it out. Most of the expat community that makes it here and learns to accept changes do not generally fall into the "normal" category. You are correct with renting, I would advise at least 6 months to a year to make sure you like where you live.

Really, I don't mean to be racist when I say this, but I think that the culture is immature in general. The American ambassador dude said that corruption is cultural. Well, I think immaturity is cultural. Sorry to all the Panamanians who this may not apply to.

I think Ron Abuelo nailed it as far as making money here. For MOST people -- it's damn hard (if not impossible) to make a GOOD living here in Panama. That being said -- if you make your money outside of the country or if you have a pension then you're good to go.

Of course there's exceptions -- I know a few expats who have done ok here. Some of them are now scrambling due to the real estate sales drying up.

And yes -- if you're EXTREMELY FLEXIBLE, AND ADAPTABLE -- I don't think you're going to "make it" as far as living here and being happy. The expats that live here and are HAPPY with it have become "Panamanized" and have learned to completely "GO WITH THE FLOW". Anything else is a surefire recipe for suffering... I thought that was funny to hear that some foreigners are trying to apply North American rules, and policies here. LOL...

That being said: I THINK PANAMA ROCKS! It fits my lifestyle perfectly... and I've been happy to call this place home for 5 years.

VIVA PANAMA!
Matt

I truly love this country as well. I just cannot see myself wanting to live anywhere else. If someone is looking to move down here be prepared to change as a person.

Panama is hit & miss. You will either love it or hate it here depending upon your personality and tolerance levels. If you have high standards and are not willing to lower them then forget about Panama. You will hate it here. If you are laid back and just go with the flow then you might like it here because Panama does have a lot to offer you. It's a very diverse and beautiful country. Regardless of who you are, you absolutely must be on guard at all times in Panama because quite frankly, honesty, integrity and ethics are lacking here especially amongst the uneducated crowd. They will always try to take advantage of you if given the opportunity. There are many other issues with the Panamanian people that will bother most foreigners so just be forewarned that the attitude and behavior of the locals will probably be your biggest gripe living here. Also be forewarned that living in 90 degree humid heat everyday gets old. And if you live in the cooler highlands, you won't have access to nice restaurants, entertainment and nightlife. Things like that you will figure out over time. But most importantly, remember that there are many other great places in the world that may suit you better than Panama so keep an open mind.

Felicity...

Thank you for your frank response. I do appreciate what you are saying and its a good balance for my natural trusting... hmmmm

Yeah, sometimes you think that nice gentleman translating for you is just a nice, but really he's negotiating with the salesman to get a cut of the sky-high price he's going to charge you. Just something to look out for.

Hmmm, in the middle of the night...lol...I did a couple of posts that didn't show so I guess I did them wrong,

With reference to your comment, were I to live here I would definitely learn the language. Can't imagine living somewhere that I can't communicate. Can't imagine negotiating anything without being in charge of my own communication, so that just would not happen. I'd find a way! lol Not 'that' naive...

If a person is planning on moving down here for the first time and they are new to the whole expat thing I would probably suggest living in Panama City for 6months to 1 year. This will help ease you into the culture and give you a chance to meet as many other expats as possible. It is good to make as many friends here as possible both expat and Panamanian.

[QUOTE=MRWOOHOO;48168]I truly love this country as well. I just cannot see myself wanting to live anywhere else. If someone is looking to move down here be prepared to change as a person.[/QUOTE]

WooHoo you just said a mouthful !! I cannot beleive how much Panama changed me . Best thing I ever did . !!!

Hi!
MrWooHoo is correct about living down here to make sure it is what you want. We were one of the odd ones that just jumped in after being here 10 days and decided this is where we wanted to retire. Came back bought land, built a home via long distance and then moved. We have NO regrets and LOVE it here. We live a little over an hour from the city, close enough but also far enough away--just like where we lived outside of Chicago!
Mary
www.whypanama.com

Originally Posted by No-Non-Sense-Matt

EXTREMELY FLEXIBLE, AND ADAPTABLE - I thought that was funny to hear that some foreigners are trying to apply North American rules, and policies here. LOL...

That being said: I THINK PANAMA ROCKS! It fits my lifestyle perfectly... and I've been happy to call this place home for 5 years.

VIVA PANAMA!
Matt

No-Non-Sense also made some very great comments, about being flexible and adaptable. This country is not for everybody but if you are open-minded enough PANAMA ROCKS!

Don't waste time trying to change the way things are done here. Just like Matt said about "trying to apply North American rules", it won't happen. I have heard people that are new here talk about "what the country/people need to be doing or changing" or making comparisons to their home country. You almost want to slap the person for their own benefit. Just like Dorothy said in the Wizard of Oz "I don't think were in Kansas anymore toto".

I understand what you are saying entirely. It makes no sense to me to go into someone's country and try to change them. As I said in a 'lost' post, it would be up to us to change, not the other way around. I think I can do this...we'll see...

Mr.Woohoo's suggestion of living here for a year is one of the best ideas on these boards. Don't BET THE FARM until you know it's a surefire win. In other words, I think it's very risky to come here and buy something and make this your home until you are 100% sure than you handle ALL of the pluses and more importantly MINUSES that come with Panama.

Have a great weekend!
Matt

Lyla, I have to disagree with you. "Someone's country?" Wasn't what we now know as the USA once owned by the native Indians? What happened to them and who took over "their" country? It was never their country to begin with. Borders and the occupants within borders are always in flux and constantly changing... or shall I say evolving. Panama may lose "their" country like the native American Indians did if they don't get their act together. The Panamanian people are already selling off their family land to foreigners so they can buy their bling and Prado's. Not a smart move. Many corporations won't come to Panama due to a shortage of good workers. The garbage and sanitary problem will never go away unless the foreigners force their way. If it weren't for foreign influence, Panama would be a sewage ridden cesspool ghetto of people who don't care about anything. That sounds harsh, but it's the truth. Go visit Colon sometime and see how bad it could get.

P.S. Lyla... please do not lower yourself and your standards just to blend in, but instead set a good example for everyone around you. If someone tries to rip you off, call them on it. Give them hell. Make them nervous. It's an effective way to teach ethics to people who have no concept of it. If someone chucks garbage on the street, tell them to use the garbage can. You must hold the people around you to a higher standard rather than lower your own. JMHO.

Banks - in Canada if you have an HSBC account they will do all the paperwork to get you an HSBC account in Panama. I think HSBC anywhere in the world will do this. It costs about $200.00 and is well worth it. If you qualify for Premier status, there is no cost. It took about a month to get everything set up for my accounts. HSBC Panama sent my internet banking password, Clave cards with pin, and checks by courier to my Canadian address. They even did all the paperwork for me to apply for a credit card in Panama. I wired money to my Panama account and it was there in an hour. If you have Premier status, there is no charge for wires. If you need to open an HSBC account where you live, get one just to do this. I have tried to open Panama bank accounts using lawyers and paying hundreds of dollars without success. HSBC has "One World". Unfortunately, Panama is not on it yet. Google this.

Originally Posted by No-Non-Sense-Matt

I think Ron Abuelo nailed it as far as making money here. For MOST people -- it's damn hard (if not impossible) to make a GOOD living here in Panama. That being said -- if you make your money outside of the country or if you have a pension then you're good to go.

Of course there's exceptions -- I know a few expats who have done ok here. Some of them are now scrambling due to the real estate sales drying up.

And yes -- if you're EXTREMELY FLEXIBLE, AND ADAPTABLE -- I don't think you're going to "make it" as far as living here and being happy. The expats that live here and are HAPPY with it have become "Panamanized" and have learned to completely "GO WITH THE FLOW". Anything else is a surefire recipe for suffering... I thought that was funny to hear that some foreigners are trying to apply North American rules, and policies here. LOL...

That being said: I THINK PANAMA ROCKS! It fits my lifestyle perfectly... and I've been happy to call this place home for 5 years.

VIVA PANAMA!
Matt

Hi,

I thought you would be a good person to ask this question : How do you compare life in Panama versus Costa Rica? By the way, we are very multicultural and we have lived in different countries, the last place we lived in was Dominican Republic. I am just wondering generally speaking what is the difference between quality of life in both countries, also how different are the two capitals.

Thanks
Sophie and David