billofpa

I m considering on retiring in Panama and would like to know if there is real estate for sale that is titled on or near the beach. Everything that i have seen is rop on the beach. If there is can you tell me of some good places that are relatively close to Panama City. Thanks for any info

GordonS

ROP? What does that mean?

__________________
Gordon and Randy,
Canada

cooltraveler2

He may have meant 'not', but I'm not sure. The letters N and T aren't near R and P, so I don't know.

Anyway, there are some available properties near the beach, but they tend to be more expensive.

Lalaguayaba

It means: Right of Possesion, and it's crappy. Right of possession - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The best explanation is that it is considered "a very, very long-term lease." For example, Hong Kong to the U.K. by China. China retained R.O.P. and when the lease expired in 1999, took back possesion.
You could 'buy' the lot in Panama that is designated R.O.P., build your house on it, etc.--but if the gov't decides in 8 years that it needs to build a new airport on your land, you are out of luck. Don't do it!! Make sure that all property is titled correctly and that title history is correct to avoid any unpleasant surprises in the future--after all, its your $$, and your life...why waste it developing for someone else's future?

Cheers.

coolandhot

I have heard of right of possession before, and I think it sounds like a terrible idea. At least, that's true if you looking to stay somewhere long-term. If you aren't staying long-term, then you mine as well just get lease.

tarzan95959

Actually my property is ROP . Most island property is . You just need to be careful when you buy ROP land . You need a very complete ownership trail and a good lawyer . My land was held by the same family for over 50 years . It should be held through a Panama corporation . Last I knew Panama was not reconizing any new ROP property . I have not heard or saw anyone rhat had any problems with ROP that filed the proper legal and goverment paperwork . Many realtors are now trying to get around this by selling ROP through private contracts with no goverment oversight . That is a bad idea . If you want buy ROP you must buy the Corporation it is held in. This is the only legal way now . If it is not held this way currently , Run . I believe the Panama Goverment is looking into Titleing all existing ROP to gain a Property Tax base . It only makes sense to do this . Many ,many Gringo's have ROP property and the country would suffer greatly if they reprosess it . The Gringo's would leave taking their retirment dollars with them and unemployement would sky rocket from all the layoff Panamaians who work for them .

Oh and one more thing . If Goverment wants your ROP property ,they have to pay "Fair Market Value " . Thats the law .

GordonS

Is there a government agency or a board of assessment to determine Fair Market Value? Do they use current Real Estate evaluations?

__________________
Gordon and Randy,
Canada

tarzan95959

Yes

coolandhot

In the United States the government can take any property they want. They do not need any ROP. They just call it eminent domain. They take properties to give them to big business, who offer bribes and campaign contributions to politicians.

They have to pay "fair market value" too.

tarzan95959

I have seen Gringos do some crazy things in Panama . Things they would never do in the States . One fella actually paid a cafe owner to act as his legal advisor . Paid him up front too. The Café guy told him a lawyer was not needed nor was a Panama Corporation and he would take care of everything ! 6 months later he emailed me and asked how long it should take to receive paperwork and ownership documents . He had not heard from the guy again .Needless to say that guy got taken to the cleaners and had no one to blame but himself . I warned him not to do it .
Folks ,If your going to buy property in Panama get a Panama Corporation first . It will protect and save your butt . You will also receive the same legal rights as a locals because a Panamanian Corporations are recognized as a Panama identity, (sp) same as a Panamanian citizen

panamapal

Wow, that wasn't a wise choice.

If I ever buy a property I will definitely get a corporation and do it through that.

Sometimes real lawyers scam gringos too, though.

Lalaguayaba

Ever heard of 'eminent domain?' That means that the government does not have to pay for your land if it will benefit the local community. That's the law--and it still happens in the United States. Kelo v. City of New London - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
My previous comments regarding R.O.P. property stand. I really just can't abide by the idea of purchasing a 'long-term lease' on land that I will build on, leaving the construction for the next owners. Of course, the Panamanian gov't will not kick the gringos off the land, they are walking ATMs to the local populations, bringing $$ in without taking jobs away from the local populace, indeed, probably employing some of the locals.
And always do odd property transactions through a properly constructed corporation; my current home in the U.S. is owned by a corporation based in Delaware, they are easy to set up and easy to administer.

I'm glad that your experience was so positive, but to answer the questions of someone who doesn't even know what R.O.P stands for--I'd say skip it. That's an opinion, not a fact.

Cheers.

GordonS

Wow! Sharp tongue Lala.....

__________________
Gordon and Randy,
Canada

tarzan95959

Gordon & Randy ,
You ever make it over to Bocas when we are there ,stop by and I will be glad to share my Limited Panama legal knowledge and thoughts on this subject over a cool drink on the front deck .Its just my 2 cents and what I have been told by my lawyer .

Yes ,there is pros and cons to all ownership of properties in Panama .

There are bad and good lawyers in Panama ,just like the states . Sometimes you get what you pay for . My lawyer is in PC and very educated in ROP and Bocas Del Toro . He's not cheap .
Cheers

Lalaguayaba

This entire thread started because someone wanted to know what R.O.P. meant; to hope that that person will immediately run off and contact the correct lawyer for such a transaction involving incorporation in a foreign country is absurd--and I'm quite sure that Tarzan would agree with me on that. It is a process not to enter into lightly, and is not the cheap route either, but it certainly has built-in protections that are not available if you own property as a private citizen. If that person wishes to purchase a R.O.P. property after many visits to Panama, meetings with a lawyer, etc., then fantastic! I wish them well on making their dreams come true!

My comments were not to be taken as a personal attack, and I do believe that Tarzan understands this as well. This a forum; a place for voicing experiences, opinions and for asking and answering questions. I do not ask that anyone share my particular opinion, and I share mine without malice. Just as I hope that you do not ask that I share yours, and do so without any expectation.

Cheers!

panamapal

I thought that when the government takes a property through eminent domain that they have to pay for it. Is that not the case?

Lalaguayaba

Did you read the link that I left? I quote the Wikipedia frequently because it is free, and has no rules about linking or sharing information, unlike most other sources of information. The power of eminent domain is limited by the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution. The Fifth Amendment, which restricts the actions of the federal government, says in part that "private property [shall not] be taken for public use, without just compensation"; under Section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment, this limitation is also imposed on the actions of U.S. state and local governments.
The city of New London chose to exercise its power of eminent domain. The city ordered the development corporation, a private entity acting as the city's legally appointed agent, to condemn the 15 holdout owners' lots.

By condemning the lots, they were declared unfit for habitation, effectively evicting the current tenants (because they wouldn't sell), and preventing the 9 non-resident owners from obtaining any recourse in the seizure of their homes. It went before the Supreme Court of the U.S.A. two years ago, in a 5-4 decision, the Court decided in favor of the city of New London (and Pfizer Pharmaceuticals) allowing the city to hand over the land to a private development firm free of charge.
Judge Sandra Day O'Connor penned the minority opinon, "Any property may now be taken for the benefit of another private party, but the fallout from this decision will not be random. The beneficiaries are likely to be those citizens with disproportionate influence and power in the political process, including large corporations and development firms." She argued that the decision eliminates "any distinction between private and public use of property — and thereby effectively delete[s] the words 'for public use' from the Takings Clause of the Fifth Amendment." (125 S.Ct. 2655, 2671 )

Clarence Thomas accuses the majority of replacing the Fifth Amendment's "Public Use" clause with a very different "public purpose" test: "This deferential shift in phraseology enables the Court to hold, against all common sense, that a costly urban-renewal project whose stated purpose is a vague promise of new jobs and increased tax revenue, but which is also suspiciously agreeable to the Pfizer Corporation, is for a 'public use.'"

The city of New London then attempted to sue for five years of back rent 'owed' by the owners of the condemed properties since the start of the trial.
The case was finally resolved when the City agreed to move Kelo's house to a new location. The controversy was eventually settled when the city paid substantial additional compensation to the homeowners--after almost 6 years of litigation, back-pedaling, and basic out-right theft of land unheard of since European explorers kicked Native Americans out of their homes.

Now that sounds like the America I know and love!!

It's no wonder why lots of Americans are leaving to live overseas; and why many are looking to obviate their current citizenship requirements, such as paying U.S. taxes on income earned overseas--we're the only country, aside from Libya, that levies such nonsense upon its citizens.

Cheers!

tarzan95959

You won't get any gripes or attacks from me .I sure as heck can respect your opinion and the right to voice it here . Everyone needs to make sure their eyes are wide open in any dealings in Panama or anywhere else for that matter .

Lalaguayaba

Thanks, I appreciate it! The more info, the better--I totally agree.

Cheers!

panamapal