Thread: Permanent residency as a retiree

Btw, MV, not to pick a fight, but I really disagree with this earlier comment of yours:

The main Problem of Mexico is, that criminality is/was higher than in other countries, like Panama. Many people, living in Mexico (Foreigners AND Natives) are complaining, that it gets higher and higher...

Having lived in both places, I disagree. There are safe and not-safe areas in both countries, just like any others.

Home burglaries are a real problem in Panama in some areas, especially those populated by ex-pats (who always have the best goodies in their homes). Just follow the blogs and news for Bocas and Boquete, and you'll see what I mean.

I found the same in Mexico: The little town where I was, no problem. But to the west, in a gringo enclave, people were always losing laptops, TVs, etc.

Now, the really serious, awful crimes also occur in both countries, but they're almost always drug related. As long as you are not involved in that trade, your chances of being caught in the crossfire (literally speaking) are very, very small.

There was a long discussion in this vein recently on one of the Yahoo Groups, comparing Panama and Costa Rica. In terms of crime rate, Panama is worse, thanks to all the drug-related murders. But people who've lived in both places will tell you that "casual" crime (pickpockets, home break-ins, etc.) is much worse in Costa Rica.

Mexico gets a bad rap because the population is gigantic compared to the rest of Central America, and the news is spectacular -- like decapitated heads being tossed into a bar in Acapulco, or a hand grenade lobbed into a bar in Morelia. But for you and me, living in the kind of town I suspect you and I would choose, I really think it's no worse than Panama.

"When I went through the process, I did have to be there in person for the first application and filing of papers -- however,
I cannot swear that that is still an absolute requirement; ask your attorney."

Yes I have.
And Your answer is that kind, I wanted to hear/to know!

Thanks again.
If I get an answer from my attorney, I will tell You.

Cheers

Mike, Frankfurt

About Criminality in Mexico/Panama.
What I fear most is KIDNAPPING.
And again - a mexican friend (reporter) living in Mex.City...
told me,
that this problem is coming bigger
last years.

Cheers
Mike

P.S.

I like Puerto Escondido and Puerto Vallarta...

maybe there ist little crime compared to Mex.City.

Is the tax exemption for retirees to import cars without any limits? i.e is it allowed for the import of luxury cars? or is it applicable only up to a certain limit (cost of the car)? Anyway it is great that the citizenship is granted after 5 years of residence.

The only limit is that you may use the exemption only once every two years.

And, it is not really an exemption, it is a deferral. I.e., if you sell that car in Panama, someone (either you or the buyer) will have to pay the tax that was deferred.

And, the amount of tax depends on some magic and unknown guide that Aduana (Customs) in Panama uses. E.g., when I imported a 2000 Jeep Cherokee, they valued it at $8,000 -- about twice what it was worth. You also have to pay tax on the amount you spent shipping it here.

So, generally speaking, importing a car is NOT a good deal, for a slew of reasons, including the above as well as service, parts, etc.

Originally Posted by MultiVista

About Criminality in Mexico/Panama.
What I fear most is KIDNAPPING.
And again - a mexican friend (reporter) living in Mex.City...
told me,
that this problem is coming bigger
last years.

I have never lived in Mexico, though I have heard recently that the number of retirees want to settle permanently in Mexico have declined steeply due to the sky rocketing crime rate. Battles between drug cartels are getting worse there.. Panama is not that much rotten yet..

Not really true, if you read my post (again).

It depends entirely on what part of each country you're talking about. E.g., in 2008 in Colón, Panama, there were 33 murders per 100K people, and in Pamana City there were 27 per 100K. Both of those rates are much higher than Mexico's overall murder rate of 13 per 100K. But Panama's country-wide murder rate is estimated to be lower, at about 12 per 100K.

In other words, to say that any *country* is safer or more dangerous than another is kind of meaningless -- kind of like the "average" income or "median" weight or any other broad calculation.

You could not pay me enough money to live in parts of Panama, because I couldn't hire enough bodyguards to survive a year. But I could say exactly the same thing about parts of Mexico, the US, Africa, et. al.

Is Monterrey, Mexico more dangerous than David, Panama? Of course it is. But at the same time, Curundú, Panama, is far, far more dangerous than Chapala, Mexico. And those are just two examples; there are hundreds of others.

Btw, how do you think those cartels in Mexico get their drugs? By shipping them through Panama...

Update to my last post: I just read another article, from a Panama newspaper, that puts Panama's overall murder rate for 2008 at 20 per 100K people.

At the same time, I'll be the first to acknowledge that a big problem with spouting all these stats is that clear data is very difficult to get from anyplace in Latin America, due to all the crime that goes unreported.

E.g., you can go online and find that the US has the highest per-capita incidence of forcible rape in the world. Is that really true? I doubt it; I suspect that it's a result of more willingness to report the crime, as well as better investigation and reporting by the police departments.

My current attorney is a little bit ... let`s say : Not professional enough, I Think.

Where I can get a serious contact?
I think some of You have experience?
Serious attorney and how much he/she will bill?

THX

MultiVista, Frankfurt

Very informative group. Is an attorney necessary to apply and secure the Panamanian pensionado visa?

Thanks in advance

Technically, no. But unless you're fluent in Spanish and have relatives working in Panama's immigration department, it's highly, highly recommended that you hire an attorney. Mayra de Ruzzi gets consistently high reviews, and her rates are better than most. Testimonies (I am not related to her, nor do I get any kickbacks -- just reporting what I've heard and read. In fact, I used a different lawyer for my visa.)

O.K.

That`s it!

Exilio is right!

It is very easy to get the papers for immigration to Mexico... at least for a German.

Some copies and documents (not very demanding/exactingly/sxigente) and after one week
I `ve got the Papers.

So I will immigrate to Mexico - despite the (pretended) criminality :-))

The lawyer in Panama was unable to do the right things in right time...

and in Mexico - saying it again - it`s much much easier and cheaper to get the papers....
Maybe in 2,3 Years we will try again to immigrte in Panama, but first we will live in Mexico (Puerto Vallarta or Escondido).

Does anybody know a good forum like this but discussing Mexico-affairs?

Cheers
Mike

Multirevue@aol.com

You've picked 2 good areas: The area just north of Puerto Vallarta is nice and not yet developed, and the area around Puerto Escondido is gorgeous -- and nearby Hualtulco is a government target for eco-development, which means money/infrastructure. (Escondido is currently a bit harder and more expensive to get to, though.)

There are many, many boards for Mexico, some targeted at specific areas. One I know of that's designed for ex-pats is http://expatsmexico.setbb.com/forum.html

PS: You might also look at the area of Manzanillo and Barra de Navididad. They're a little funkier than PV and PE (in a good way), and relatively close to Guadalajara -- which means easy flights and great medical services. Not so many short-term gringo tourists, though lots of snowbirds. I think housing is a bit cheaper, too. Manzanillo was my first stop when I lived in Mexico.

THX!!

Puerto Escondido is more expensive bc. the mentiones Projects?

Guadelajara, I know.
But it ist a little bit a more industrial city than others... and therfore a bit more noisy and dirty... and maybe :-) more criminal ...?

Cheers

Miike

I was mainly referring to travel costs. Used to be that you had to fly to DF, then take a short flight (sometimes 2) to get to PE. But I think there's a new airport at Hualtulco.

Housing costs in Manzanillo/Barra are a little lower simply because the towns are not dependent on tourists (Manz is the busiest port in Mexico), and they don't have the "glamour" appeal of the other spots we're talking about.

I wan't suggesting *living* in Guad -- only that it is a cheap hub for transport, and big enough (about 8 million) to have everything you need. From Guad to Manz/Barra or PV is about 3 hours in luxury bus -- and under US$30.

If you're talking about permanent, old-age retirement, you need to pay attention to infrastructure and esp healthcare, imho. If, e.g., god forbid, you need weekly dialysis, you don't want to have to pick up and move your home to get it.

Plus, if you want to travel in the future, check out the costs now, before you move. E.g., compare the cost and time of getting from PE to NYC (or Paris or Rio or wherever), then compare those costs/times to Manz and PV. But if you plan to just sit in your casita and never go than 100 miles from home, it doesn't matter.

I guess what I'm trying to point out here: We all like to get away from those places that are invaded by thousands and thousands of tourists -- like PV. But the good part about all those tourists is that their money creates infrastructure that benefits the residents. Like, hospitals. Like, frequent and cheap flights in and out. So, to me, the ideal situation is to be near those areas -- but not too near. :-)

THX for Your recommendations...

MultiVista

okayyyy thanks for that one

Originally Posted by Marc

Ok, I'll bite. What are the requirements to obtain permanent residency as a retiree? I discovered Panama about a year ago and stay several weeks each year. So far, it looks like a great place to retire.

If you don't mind my asking, how did you "discover" Panama? Was it while researching a retirement haven, or some other way?

How to become a permanent resident in Panama

Also regulated by Executive Decree No. 320 of August 8th, 2008, the retiree or “pensionado” residence status requires that applicant demonstrates an income on pension of only US$1,000.00 per month and $250.00 for each dependent.

Once the visa petition is filed before the Immigration and Naturalization Directorate, a permanent residence permit will be granted to the applicant within 4-6 months as of the date of filing of the application.
This type of residence is expedite ant the status is granted for life.
Requirements to Obtain the Retiree Status

• Power of attorney
• Good health medical certificate, HIV Test
• Good standing report from police or municipal authorities
• Complete copy of passport
• Letter certifying applicant condition as a retiree and amount earned per month. If it is a private entity, proof of its existence must be supplied.
• Photographs, carnet size
• Marriage certificate

Note: Except for the retiree certification, the same documents must be supplied by the spouse. All documents must be apostilled or certified before a Panama consulate at the place of issuance.
Panamanian law also grants retirees a very good tax exemption package including:

• Tax exemption to import a car every 2 years
• Import tax exemption for households up to US$10,000
• Multiple tax exemptions and discounts on services in Panama

How to become a permanent resident in Panama
Panama living and retirement forum

Note that the list of documents required in the previous post is not entirely complete; e.g., you can't just bring a letter to prove your pension, especially if it is a private pension; there are several other steps.

Also, re: car importation, it is *not* a tax exemption -- it is a deferrment.
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How to become a permanent resident in Panama

Also regulated by Executive Decree No. 320 of August 8th, 2008, the retiree or “pensionado” residence status requires that applicant demonstrates an income on pension of only US$1,000.00 per month and $250.00 for each dependent.

Once the visa petition is filed before the Immigration and Naturalization Directorate, a permanent residence permit will be granted to the applicant within 4-6 months as of the date of filing of the application.
This type of residence is expedite ant the status is granted for life.
Requirements to Obtain the Retiree Status
Power of attorney
Good health medical certificate, HIV Test
Good standing report from police or municipal authorities
Complete copy of passport
Letter certifying applicant condition as a retiree and amount earned per month. If it is a private entity, proof of its existence must be supplied.
Photographs, carnet size
Marriage certificate
Note: Except for the retiree certification, the same documents must be supplied by the spouse. All documents must be apostilled or certified before a Panama consulate at the place of issuance.
Panamanian law also grants retirees a very good tax exemption package including:
Tax exemption to import a car every 2 years
Import tax exemption for households up to US$10,000
Multiple tax exemptions and discounts on services in Panama

How to become a permanent resident in Panama www.sollifestyles.com

Again, it is *not* a tax exemption on automobiles; it is a deferral.
And "proof of its existence" for private pensions can be problematic.
Finally, the previous post leaves out a LOT of detail re: certification of documents.

What is the minimum annual time period one must stay in Panama to keep their residency valid?

I have received much conflicting information from Panamanian Legal firms as to the actual residency requirements as far as minimum costs etc.

It is literally impossible to find a government site with detailed info- google is polluted with legal and real etstae firms when searching for anything Panama related.

Welcome suggestions or advice-thanks in advance!

Not sure there is such a requirement. How could the Panamanian government possibly keep track of all your flights and add things up? Just forgot about this issue.....

I got my visa filed for $500 + notary expenses.

Here is the website you should be looking at: Servicio Nacional de Migración

http://www.gacetaoficial.gob.pa/pdfTemp/26104/12594.pdf is the law I think.

Best wishes, Ed
PANAMA BANK GUIDE - LIST OF BANKS IN PANAMA

Originally Posted by caribeman

What is the minimum annual time period one must stay in Panama to keep their residency valid?

I have received much conflicting information from Panamanian Legal firms as to the actual residency requirements as far as minimum costs etc.

It is literally impossible to find a government site with detailed info- google is polluted with legal and real etstae firms when searching for anything Panama related.

Welcome suggestions or advice-thanks in advance!

As far as I know the solvencia economica visa will cost more than $2000,all expanses included. And with the new law, there is a "repatriation deposit" of $800 which is non-refundable.So total will be $2500 plus.

Sorry it will be $1000 plus the repatriation fee of $800.

---------- Post added at 09:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:42 PM ----------

Can anybody tell me on what ground immigration in Panama can refuse your visa application if you have clean police clearance and you have the right revenue or have made the right investment?